Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.
Joshua Kornitsky: Welcome back to High Velocity Radio. My name is Joshua Kornitsky. I’m a professional implementer of iOS and your host here today I am joined by a friend and an incredible guest, Kirsten Ross Vogel. She’s a leadership team coach and an author who has worked with individuals and organizations navigating growth, complexity, and change. Her work really focuses on helping leaders communicate clearly, build credibility, and create meaningful impact. Kirsten brings a thoughtful, grounded perspective shaped by deep experience in leadership development and coaching, and she’s really known for her her blend of practical insight and human centered leadership. She’s worked with EOS, with EOS implementers, and with our community since literally the beginning of EOS. So welcome, Kirsten. I’m deeply honored to have you here, I really am.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Thanks so much for having me. And I love that we’re getting to do this today. I know we got I got to see you in Detroit. It’s been a little over a year ago now, so.
Joshua Kornitsky: It’s good to see how the time flies for sure. Um, well, let’s begin at the beginning. Would you share your origin story? Tell us where what brought you to the world that you now function in and, and maybe even a little bit of the ancient lore of EOS.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Oh, goodness. Okay. Um, well, so my story is maybe a little outside of what you normally expect with someone starting a business, but, um, so my background team and resources, master’s degree, senior certified human resource professional over 35 years. I hesitate to say, but, um, you started.
Joshua Kornitsky: At age three?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Yeah, exactly, exactly. But, uh, this business actually was born out of my need to get out of an abusive marriage, um, over 25 years ago. And so I, you know, I’d always had an entrepreneurial spirit. I had been working for others for a period in human resources. But as part of the kind of the trajectory of that difficult marriage, um, I was not working, and I needed to. I had two small boys, and I knew I needed to get out. And so during that period, I checked with some of my trusted advisors and said, what is it that you see in me that I might not be seeing in myself? And over the course of that first week of exploring with trusted advisors, I had several people tell me I should be a coach. Now, keep in mind this is the early 2000, so coaching wasn’t well known at that point and I had not heard of it. So I had to hit Google, right? Uh, but once I did that and saw the descriptions of what coaches did. I realized that I had been accidentally coaching people my whole life. Um, to date myself even more. Um, you know, Ann Landers, if anyone knows.
Joshua Kornitsky: I know who she was.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Um, they used to call me the Ann Landers of the high school, because people would come to me with their issues and their problems and their communication snafus, and I would help encourage and motivate, etc.. And so, um, anyway, when I saw the description, I knew that this was that thing I’d been yearning for. Um, I knew it was my purpose. And so, uh, I took a coaching class, read a book Co-active coaching, and took on a couple of just freebie clients to test the waters they made transformation. And that was it. I created my website, you know, the name focus for coaching, created my website and launched my business. And I was able to file for divorce about six months or so later.
Joshua Kornitsky: Wow. So it really did begin your life anew.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: It really did. And so that’s what I mean. Like, it’s probably not the optimal time, um, to start a business. I was definitely kind of beaten down. And, you know, again, it’s been a number of years, so a lot of healing has happened. But it was great because it, you know, it gave me the opportunity to be there for my two boys and, um, you know, and make a living to support us and provided the flexibility that I needed to help them heal and help myself heal.
Joshua Kornitsky: Well. And I know one of the things, obviously, with that human resources background, you you have a different perspective than most people will when looking at, uh, what I would describe as as human related challenges. Right. But communication is really your strength. How how did that skill, how did the communication skill evolve to impact on the HR side of things? And and really, I guess that’s the birth of your coaching, right. Because you’re bridging gaps.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Yes, absolutely. And, you know, the underlying issue and kind of everything with human dynamics is our communication. And it starts with, you know, it’s not just how we’re communicating to others, but also what are we communicating to ourselves. And that’s really kind of at its core, our mindset. And so, um, it was really born out of continuing, you know, and from human resources, a human resource perspective. Um, you know, I can tell someone, you know, have a progressive discipline process or a good attendance policy. But the problem is, many leaders are have barriers to actually utilizing those tools. They’re good tools to have. But so the coaching is how do you communicate clear expectations. How do you, um, have correction conversations with employees? And one of the big stop gaps for leaders in, uh, engaging in those conversations is they have fear and guilt. And so the internal barriers that they have are stopping them from doing the things that they need to do. So the coaching really is helping people maneuver through their own fears and guilts of engaging in what they find to be uncomfortable conversations. And, um, so what they’re telling themselves internally, which also creates our nonverbals, um, and how to strategize about really engaging in whether it’s, you know, a huge negotiation that you’re going to into or just having a conversation with an employee. How do we show up as leaders, feeling fully empowered? Because we’re we’re leading with our strengths, we’re focused on our intentions, and we realize that we’re not ultimately responsible for the reactions that others have about the conversation as long as we’re showing up well.
Joshua Kornitsky: So I think you’re bringing to light, uh, an assumption I had made. Right? Which means lots of people make, because my assumption was that the bridge you were building was. Hey, executive. Hey, VP. Hey, director, let me help you learn the skills you need in order to do these things. But it sounds like you’re starting at a much more foundational level of. Let’s make sure you understand that what you think you are alone in feeling is pretty normal, is. I ask that as a question, right?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Yeah. Yes. And sometimes that’s part of it. We can normalize it. So now, you know, I certainly don’t want my clients to or anyone listening. Don’t beat yourself up about the things that, you know, stand in the way of you showing up. Well. Et cetera. In conversations or allowing yourself to avoid difficult or uncomfortable conversations. Um, I say that people often create, um, reasons that excuses that feel like valid reasons, but really aren’t. But yes, it’s so normal. The number of times that I have worked with a high level leader and to overcome their people pleasing, um, you know, who would thunk? Who would have thunk, right?
Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and it really is kind of eye opening for you to share that because, you know, the, the veneer, the the outward facing appearance is all confidence and confidence in Polish. Right? And it’s somewhat, um, really humanizing to understand that behind the veneer, there might be a little bit of sweat and some knocking knees, all.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Kinds of stuff.
Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah. And you’re telling me that’s normal?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Yeah. I mean, and I don’t even think the goal is to remove that. The goal is to have that, not stop us. And so I, you know, we can’t shut down our brain in those uncertainties and, and, you know, but we work the muscle and we get more and more confident in going and having what we find to be uncomfortable conversations. But yet my work is definitely a combination of teaching strategies. Um, either, you know, HR kinds of things or strategies I’ve created over the decades, um, or I’m a bookaholic, you know, information coming out of that. But then to me, the coaching piece is, is all the internal barriers. So we need to bust those, um, so they can utilize the strategies that I’m teaching.
Joshua Kornitsky: I think that that’s a really insightful, uh, footnote to something that’s a much bigger deal. Uh, and I say that because, truthfully, it’s sort of an eye opener for me because I think, like a lot of people, we assume at some level magical confidence comes. Right. That that when I am leading XYZ organization or this many people that I, I know how to do that and it doesn’t make me sweat and it doesn’t bother me. And I think that it does help anybody that hears this to know that that not only is it normal, but there are other techniques, there’s tools, there’s resources that you can help them understand better how to cope with. And somebody long, probably before books were even written, said something to the effect of, you know, courage isn’t the absence of fear. It’s it’s understanding the fear and doing it anyway. Right. Is acknowledging that I’m afraid and doing it anyhow.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Yes. And don’t waste energy beating yourself up for something that is normal that so many people go through. It’s just don’t be stopped. Now, I don’t know if this is folklore, um, but I believe it to be true. Um, Barbra Streisand, who we all, you know, well, I think everyone still knows. Maybe certain people who are much younger might not know her, but, like, you know, um, the Queen, uh, on huge stages. Well, I’ve heard that she actually has huge stage fright and would become physically ill before going out on stage.
Joshua Kornitsky: Wow.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: So what are some of the things that separate her from those who don’t get on big stages. Is that not that she didn’t have the fear that she overcame it and she just did it anyway.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s, uh, we’ll have to look more into that one.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: The one don’t know. The one that I know for sure, because I’ve heard it from his own mouth in interviews, is that Harrison Ford is, like, painfully shy, despite the fact that he always plays these very up front characters. If you see him in an interview, he’s uncomfortable as can be.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Yeah. And I think it was one of the Backstreet Boys or something. Again, I don’t follow the boy bands, but like one of, you know, one of them was also very, you know, had a lot of stage fright and anxiety, etc..
Joshua Kornitsky: So and I guess they worked through it with folks like you. That’s fantastic. So let me ask at a high level, Kirsten, what types of groups and organizations and people do you typically work with?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Um, I work largely with, uh, businesses running on iOS. Uh, so part of my story is. Yeah, is, uh, I’ve actually known Gino Wickman since before it was iOS, and worked with a number of the clients in the book traction. One of my first clients was actually in that book, and that’s how I met him originally was because the client said, we’re working with this guy, and we that’s all he was back then, you know this guy. So we need you to know and understand his process. But, uh, so, uh, you know, through that, that’s kind of the start of my business was, you know, Gino.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s great.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Starting to refer me business. Um, and other EOS implementers now. But, um, I love working, um, in and around the nooks and crannies of EOS running businesses, but really, any privately held, uh, business and a lot of family businesses, uh, anywhere where leaders are having difficulty, there’s just clunkiness issues, barriers to executing on what they’re trying to make happen in their business. And, uh, the people side of that can just add an extra complexity. And certainly in family business, uh, the relationship slash communications slash discomfort in conversations and decisions that can ignite. So I do a lot of work with family businesses. You know, Uncle Charlie’s wreaking havoc in the. Sure. And you don’t know what to do about it. Uh, visionaries. Integrators really having a lot of friction. Um, yeah. So that’s that’s how I work with.
Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and leaving names out of it. I even brought you, uh, asked you to talk with one of my clients in a family business because, um, let’s just say the the dynamics of every family business, in my experience, are wildly different. Uh, and they were having a fairly common problem. And their problem was it’s hard to draw a line between doing right by the business and doing right by your family. I think is a good way to sum that issue up. And and is that a common? Is that a common engagement for you where where people are sort of torn?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Absolutely. And, you know, sometimes it’s I know what the right things are to do, but I just am too afraid to do it. I mean, we’re going to get back to that fear thing again. Um, you know, have those conversations and, uh, make some difficult decisions, prepare for the, the discussions that need to happen, etc.. But yeah, lots of family business. You know, there’s more at stake, uh, you know.
Joshua Kornitsky: Because.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: You want to still have things Thanksgiving together.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right in, in in the words of, of one of my family clients. Yeah, I know, I, I might need to fire the this person or that person, but when the sun comes up the next day, it’s still my brother or my sister or my cousin. Right. And and that doesn’t change. Even if it’s for the best. For the business.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Yes. You know, I can share just a recent example of a family business that I’ve been working with. And, um, it was a little unique one because it was actually a son owned the business and the father was working there. But, um, you know, in this scenario, initially, the person I was coaching was taking lots of things personally versus being objective. So I had to coach around, um, building objectivity and how they were perceiving circumstances. And thank goodness that we did that work, because ultimately, um, some shifts happened in the business and they had to make some difficult decisions. And, you know, I don’t want to go into the specifics too much, but thank goodness that the family was able to be objective and realize they were business decisions that were difficult and they didn’t need to impact the family relationships.
Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and you hit a great word there, right? Because it’s in you’ve got to treat it as an objective situation, not an emotional situation. And and without asking you to to share anything private of any of your clients, what’s, what’s an example maybe of of that type of a Transformation. How do you what I know that the ultimate answer and I say this all the time is it depends. But in a in a scenario you can think of, what are some of the ways that you might 1 or 2 of the ways you could help them change that perspective, to not take it personally, because I would say that’s the biggest bucket I encounter is where where legitimate iOS centered, uh, constructive feedback is, is not heard as feedback is not heard as constructive. Um, it’s an attack. Um, and it’s not ever meant to be an attack.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Right. So, um, so in coaching clients who are worried about someone perceiving it as an attack, the difficult conversation that I keep referring to, um, one of the things I coach around is making sure that, um, we don’t take responsibility for someone else’s response to the conversation, so I can’t dictate whether or not someone’s going to take it personally when I’m being objective. The only thing I can do is lean on my good intentions for the business. Now, of course, yes, there’s more at stake, and we want, and we hope that someone in our family can can see it as objective and not personal or consequences or punitive or any of that. So all we can do is, um, focus on how we’re communicating in terms of though, if I’m working on with the person who is taking things personally, it is a shift. Tell yourself a different story, um, about the the information that you’re taking in and see it as fact based, um, how it’s it’s really a mindset thing. And the story we tell ourselves is, is what I’ll say, um, about what we’re hearing. Um, and so I’m trying to think of a way to um, so in those scenarios, uh, yeah. The person communicating don’t be stopped by the, the fear of how someone might react if they have a tendency to take things personally, just know like that’s on them, that’s their emotions to modulate and deal with and and all of that. But if you can stay up on this sturdy platform as you communicate, uh, versus getting defensive, etc., when someone’s taking it personally, um, you’re leaving the door open for hopefully more constructive communication going forward. Um, but so.
Joshua Kornitsky: I mean, thank you that, that I think that says a lot and, and the logical question and I’m a word geek. I can’t help it. My mom’s librarian retired.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: Uh, how important is language and the right language in those types of dialogs?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: 100%. I mean, I was just helping someone prepare for a big negotiation, and we so I when I’m coaching, like, I love humans, they’re they’re hilarious. And so we got laughing though because the words that he was planning on using worse, you know, would have ignited so much, probably defensiveness and frustration and the person he was about to communicate with. Um, we need to focus on the words were, again, words we’re communicating out, but also internally, you know, I’ll share about if I have time. A very quick story about this was a number of years ago, but I was working with a client who, um, had a really difficult job because she was, um, she was working with children who had very high physical and mental challenges and often had to work with the schools to try to get these children resources. And she came to me and said, it’s an injustice. It’s an injustice. She was, in her mind, dealing with injustices multiple times a week. Most of us will not deal with an injustice over a lifetime, sure, but when you’re using that word internally, how are you showing up to those conversations? You’re in battle. You have your gear on. You’re defensive. You’re pushing. And so the fix was for her to shift the words that she was saying. I pointed that out. That’s a huge, huge word. What if you could come from a different perspective that they just have limited resources, that they want to help these kids just as much as you do? They want to lock arms with you. And, you know, so you’re to find creative solutions to getting these resources. By the next week, she had already had dramatically improved interactions with all the schools that she had dealt with in that previous week, just because she was showing up better. And the good news is that’s within our control.
Joshua Kornitsky: Absolutely. Well, and I think the what you just put your finger on that again, I think is is incredibly helpful for, for anyone that that takes the time to listen to you express this to them, is that reframing of the internal monologue really is critical because, as you said, your body language if Injustice. Using your example is such a strong word. You have to physically manifest if that’s what you think it is in here. Your body language is going to be, I imagine, pretty aggressive.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: And what does that ignite in the other person you’re talking to? They also have to protect. Right. And now we’re not really communicating. Yeah. Yeah. We’re both through our swords in the sand and you know and we’re both stuck. We’re not actually having a conversation.
Joshua Kornitsky: So do you ever do any type of and this is my term. But like de-escalation of those situations because I’ve seen organizations grind to a stop at the leadership team level. Shockingly. Right. Because A wants this and B wants that. And you know, there’s no they I use the terminology bridge all the time and there’s no bridge between them because one of them usually sometimes both of them have no interest in building it.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Yep. I have done several situations like that just in the last year. Yes, absolutely.
Joshua Kornitsky: So there is hope is what you’re really saying?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: 100%. There is. Yes. Um, and it’s either, um, you know, the best way for me to work on that help with that is to meet individually with those who are stuck. Again, I’m the kind of the puppet masters behind the scenes, like helping them different perspectives strategize about how to show up different ways to communicate. A lot of times that can fix it. If not, I will facilitate. Um, in in over 30 plus years of facilitating, I’ve never lost control of a conversation. So I can say with confidence that they will reach a resolution in whatever topic we choose. Um, and that’ll be a real life topic that they’ve been stuck on. But also I will communication coach along the way and have them make commitments for how they’ll communicate in the future.
Joshua Kornitsky: A lot of what you’re sharing Resonates with me as an EOS implementer because, uh, at the risk of of making a connection, whether it’s there or not is so much of it is that that openness and honesty that’s that’s critical to EOS. And forgive me, I just came back from doing three different annuals. It all goes back to the Lencioni trust pyramid and vulnerability based trust, but it really is. If if there’s no trust, there’s not going to be healthy conflict and.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: 100%.
Joshua Kornitsky: And is conflict. Let me ask you this so that people can hear it from someone other than than Patrick Lencioni and myself. Is conflict always a bad thing?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: No. If you’re not having conflict, you know, when you think about the integrator visionary, how many times have we all seen a visionary integrator getting along swimmingly? No. Getting along swimmingly. Guess what’s happening? Either that business is going in too many directions too quickly, or moving way too slow. They should both be uncomfortable because they need to be moving through the discomfort and negotiating to the middle ground of visionary and integrator. So we’re not moving as quickly as the visionary wants to go. We’re not moving as slowly as the integrator wants to go. Um, and so that middle ground is perfection. And so yeah, if you’re not having disagreements people are silent. And that’s also not good.
Joshua Kornitsky: That that resonates with me in particular, coming out of the annual season and the fact that, um, I will run into a visionary integrator duo where the the integrator has given up, meaning that that the visionaries, irrespective of gender, the visionaries forcefulness. Because let’s face it, it was that forcefulness that pushed that organization into being correct. But sometimes the integrators just give up. And I always try to suggest that. What you know, you know, if you don’t believe that’s the right path. Go to that vto go to that blueprint. Right. And if the blueprint says we all agreed not to do this, then your answer is that’s the hill you got to die on.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Right? And the problem is that some time, you know, the the sometimes that visionary often that visionary is in the CEO seat and, or they’re the business owner. And so they have like on paper a lot of power and from experience a lot of power. But if you’re going to fully implement, uh, EOS, they have to give away some of that power to that integrator, because ultimately that integrator is a very important part of the equation. And if you’re still doing what you were doing in the visionary seat, right. The integrator. Yeah, the integrators got that deciding vote. They’re the ones that are operationalizing and bringing reality into the decision making equation. Like you have to give them power.
Joshua Kornitsky: So I want to ask how and I’ll, I want to be sensitive to your time, but I want to ask this question because it it it is born from what we were just discussing, iOS or not, iOS always helps, right? But iOS or not, is there an inherent power dynamic when you have an owner dealing with anybody who’s not an owner?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Well, not inherent, but it’s a leadership skill that they like a muscle. They may need to work because, you know, in lots of privately held businesses, I mean, my favorite place to play is like the crazy entrepreneurs that are so passionate about either the business, you know, the service or the whatever they’re selling, whatever they’re selling, they’re passionate about that. And they muscled their way through the beginning, um, and maybe hired some family members to, you know, minimize that gap, you know, and because that’s who they trust and we love one another and all of that. Uh, but so there’s a way that you lead, though, when it’s when you’re just muscling your way through, uh, the communication can be clunky. You can move in a lot of directions, but as you get bigger, you have to transform how you’re leading. And so some will do that, but most need some help.
Joshua Kornitsky: And that’s a perfect place for me to ask Kirsten, how do people get Ahold of you?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Um, well, I would love to hear from people who listen to this podcast. And, uh, you can go to my website, Focus Forward Coaching. Com is my website where you can find, um, you know, if you want to grab do a little virtual coffee, you can grab a spot on my calendar. Um, that’s probably the best way. I’m on LinkedIn, too. Is Kirsten Ross Vogel. Uh, I do also have, um, my Impact Academy, which is, uh, a place where I have, you know, over the decades. I have lots of, you know, video, audio, PDF downloads, etc.. And so, uh, if you want to just go in there and access all of that, you can go to defeat the drama.
Joshua Kornitsky: Which is also, I think, the name of your book, isn’t it?
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Oh, one of my books is Defeat Team Drama. Now and then, the other ones. From people problems to productivity. The health professional’s guide to leading well.
Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah, and those are both on Amazon if anyone wants to buy them. Yep. Fantastic. Well, I can tell you that I certainly learned a couple of things today because it being in the US implementer means you have to exist outside of an organization. You, no matter how much you care about them, no matter how much you want their success, you are not part of that team on a day in, day out basis. And while I have my own background and experience, knowing that I can now move forward, telling the leadership teams that I’m working with that what they’re feeling is normal and that there’s some help and some hope. That’s a big deal. So thank you. That was a that was a pretty invaluable piece of information that I hope everybody takes to heart. Um, it’s been an absolute joy chatting with you. Thank you so much. Um, let me just remind everybody that today my guest is Kirsten Ross Vogel. She’s a leadership coach and author who works with individuals and organizations. You heard how she navigates growth, complexity, and most importantly, leadership and communication. Uh, I think that anybody who runs into a problem in a family business and a non-family business, uh, that that has a communication roadblock should reach out. Kirsten, I can’t thank you enough for your time.
Kirsten Ross Vogel: Well, thank you so much for having me.
Joshua Kornitsky: It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for joining us here on High Velocity Radio. I’m Joshua Kornitsky professional EOS implementer and your host. We’ll see you next time. Thank you.

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.
Joshua Kornitsky: Welcome back to High Velocity Radio. My name is Joshua Kornitsky. I’m a professional implementer of the entrepreneurial operating system and your host here today, I have with me two wonderful guests that I’m grateful to have. With me in studio are Abhi Golhar of really a global presence, and I’ve also got Gillian Rabin here with me from Lafayette and Oak. And we’re going to talk a lot about what makes business run and grow and scale. Welcome, guys.
Gillian Rabin: Thank you so much.
Joshua Kornitsky: It’s nice to have you. I’m not even going to run through the introduction. We’re just going to jump right in and have a discussion.
Joshua Kornitsky: Because at the end of the day, what started our dialog earlier before we ever hit record was the simple idea of of, uh, be asked the question, what makes a business go from 5 to 50 million? And I said, mostly wishful thinking. Um, no. The reality of of what gets a business to grow isn’t an easily answered question, but the reality of it is it takes organization. It takes the right people in the right seats. It takes a plan. But it also takes Jillian, somebody who understands and can translate the the business’s story to the market.
Gillian Rabin: Yes.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right. And folks that that understand why investing in this organization, investing in this company might be a good thing for them.
Joshua Kornitsky: So let’s talk. How do we get there? We’re here’s here’s our company. We sell $5 million worth of widgets a year.
Abhi Golhar : Three things.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Abhi Golhar : People, do you need the right operator, CEO, C-suite people.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Abhi Golhar : The second the narrative and the third capital.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Abhi Golhar : And it’s not capital in the traditional sense of private equity. Or I’m going to go to Bank of America and get a loan for $5 million. It’s very unlikely that will that will happen. But it’s those three things.
Joshua Kornitsky: Well, I want to I want to take that apart a piece at a time. Right. And I don’t want to necessarily go in order, because the first question I want to have is, okay, so here’s your $5 million widget company. Here’s $5 million wherever the source is from. What does an average company do with a sudden influx of financing? And I’m asking I don’t know what what happens when you hand a $5 million loan, regardless of of the details of it? Here’s 5 million in funding. What happens to a company that that has no plan?
Gillian Rabin: Well, they have to make a plan. Um, and I think you start with that story. A plan is as arbitrary until there’s a through line to that plan, and that through line comes through with a compelling narrative. And it has to not just be a story. Anyone can can write a compelling story, but does it make sense for what you’re doing and what you’re selling and why you’re selling? And I think in today’s world, you have so many. We’re constantly there’s an onslaught of compelling narratives that are always trying to grab our attention. And so it’s figuring out who your audience is and really capturing what it is that you’re doing, why it is that you’re selling, what you’re selling, and who you are. Because a lot of people do gravitate towards a mission that is relatable, that is a human centric mission. Um, and finding those gaps in the market and kind of capitalizing on those. So why does your product, why would someone need a widget right now? And it’s kind of figuring that out.
Joshua Kornitsky: So how do you how do you learn to build that narrative.
Gillian Rabin: Through trial and error. I mean, you have to. I think I think it’s it’s getting the right people to help you. Like Lafayette and Oak. But if you have. But if you’re just doing it on your own, I think it’s brainstorm sessions and refining. It’s testing and refining. It’s like a B marketing, right? But having operators that have experience in that is incredibly helpful.
Joshua Kornitsky: Well, so you mentioned Lafayette and Oak, I mentioned Lafayette. No. Tell us a little bit about Lafayette Oak. What what what role do they fulfill in the market?
Abhi Golhar : Yeah, actually, to your to your initial point, if you just get an influx of $5 million and you don’t have a plan around it, you fail.
Joshua Kornitsky: And that’s to my experience. Yeah. That’s it. It is. It is money from heaven, which is great, but money from heaven in the hands of people who don’t know. No negative implication, who simply aren’t accustomed to getting that type of an influx in cash, can make decisions that they believe are that are in the best interest of the organization.
Abhi Golhar : It’s like winning the lottery, 99% of the time.
Joshua Kornitsky: 17 new trucks?
Abhi Golhar : Yeah. No you don’t. Right. And even if you did. Even if you got them one, you’re probably not buying them, right? Number two, you probably don’t have the right accounting firm to help you really benefit from the tax strategy behind it. And then you don’t have the people to run it. And now you’re behind with payroll. No. So if you if if you happen to have $5 million in cash tomorrow, just don’t spend.
Gillian Rabin: And all of your assets immediately depreciate.
Joshua Kornitsky: So so what you’re saying is there needs to be a strategy.
Gillian Rabin: I think there might need to be a strategy.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. And is that where Lafayette comes into play?
Abhi Golhar : Yeah. So Lafayette and Oak is centered around the idea that you’re a business owner and you’re looking at the field and you’re looking out there and you’re you’re listening to podcasts and radio shows and and you’re swiping up on TikTok and Instagram like I do every morning. And everybody is telling you to either do one of two things. Number one, grow your business. Or number two, sell your business.
Joshua Kornitsky: Sure. Private equity.
Abhi Golhar : Yay!
Joshua Kornitsky: Yay! We can all cash out.
Abhi Golhar : Okay. Yes and no. Right. The the way that we can get there. But the way that private equity typically works is they’ll say, well, we’ll establish a baseline valuation for your business, and then here’s 50% in cash. And now the other 50%. Well, it’s going to be an earnout. It’s going to be a seller note it’s going to be some kind of rollover equity. And now you’re mine for five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten years until you die. And oh, by the way, you have so many more metrics that you have to meet. Enter the world of private equity and really hard teeth. Right? Yeah. So Lafayette is centered around centered around this idea that you’re a business owner, you’re looking at the field and you’ve got these two options. Maybe, maybe take the road that nobody’s really talking about. Maybe before you grow your business, you laid the foundation of the right corporate infrastructure, which then will attract the right capital, which then also informs the right inorganic and organic growth strategies. More often than not, people talk about and think about organic growth, marketing, sales. What investments do we have to make in people? Strategy, execution ops. Right. That’s the stuff that’s that organically will drive the value of a business forward and upward. But the other thing that also drives this valuation is inorganic growth, also known as hey, let’s go find our competitors and let’s go buy them. The problem in the world of today is private credit, private equity. Those those sources of funds are not available, readily available if you don’t know one, how to build your narrative. And number two, using that narrative to craft a compelling enough acquisition. Holdco with portico stories to then attract private equity private credit fund to say we’ll do a little bit of debt with follow on equity. And what does that structure look like? For me, the business owner.
Joshua Kornitsky: I can understand how confusing this is for the generically the the average business owner.
Abhi Golhar : It’s already getting confusing, right.
Joshua Kornitsky: Because, well, these are not unless they’ve got a background in finance or they’ve been in M&A or banking, everything you’ve just said is going to hit them like 100 pounds on the head.
Gillian Rabin: People are pausing and googling as they should.
Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah, well, and that’s the reality of it. But is it a fair I don’t want to lead the witness. Is it a fair statement to ask a fair question to ask that we’ve reached the point that, yes, of course, with grit and determination you can grow and sell your business. You can, but if you want to maximize that value, have we reached the point that we have to have assistance?
Abhi Golhar : If you don’t, assistance will be provided for you, and typically that assistance is not going to have your best interest in mind.
Joshua Kornitsky: I see what you’re saying.
Abhi Golhar : Enter the world of business brokering, right?
Joshua Kornitsky: And I’ve talked with enough business brokers to know that. And one of them in particular, uh, espoused a concept that stuck with me. Right. That the buyer has a team as the seller. If you don’t have a team, you’re you’re largely missing the opportunity to maximize what you’re going to receive.
Gillian Rabin: Absolutely.
Joshua Kornitsky: So it sounds like.
Gillian Rabin: It’s like if you were in, like on a sports team, like let’s say that you were a soccer team and there was only one coach, and the coach was on your rival team. But the coach is supposed to be coaching both of.
Joshua Kornitsky: Those teams.
Gillian Rabin: But for whatever reason, the other team keeps winning. It’s you have to have people who are on, who are in your corner and who are looking out for your best interest.
Joshua Kornitsky: So what are the types of things that people need to be aware of? What do they need to watch for? What are what are what are the types of team members that that say Lafayette know helps them? Obviously, we talked about crafting a narrative and I suspect that happens. Does that happen closer to the beginning so that we have we we know our story before we go looking, or does that happen further down the road when we’ve gotten financials in order, or does it happen at the same time?
Gillian Rabin: It depends on when the people come and ask for assistance. I think each each operator is different. Um, but.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah, so it depends. As Jillian mentioned, it’s sometimes it’s the narrative first because I really want to be able to feel your heart.
Joshua Kornitsky: Sure.
Abhi Golhar : And if and if we can and if we know we can tell a compelling story around it, then great. We can see that we could we could check out the financials, even a business that. So there are four stages to any business startup growth, maturity. Decline. Four stages. I don’t care if you’re a fortune 500 company or you’re just a fledgling startup. Startup growth. Maturity. Decline. There are narratives inside of each of these stages, but they’re also a very specific way PNL should look inside of these stages. Startups, for example, you’ll have 30, 40, 50% year over year growth. A company in growth stage. Probably not going to see that, right? You’re probably going to see you. I mean, you see this, right? 510 maybe maybe 10% mature company, 3 to 4% a year. And then if you’re a company on decline because you just failed to think, you failed to realize that AI is a thing, just like, you know, you probably also thought that the internet was just a fad in 2000. It still is. It still is, I believe al Gore, he invented the internet. I’m still in his camp.
Joshua Kornitsky: You never know what will happen. That’s all I’m gonna say.
Abhi Golhar : But to your point, it’s. Listen, you do you have a sustainable the question everybody should be asking themselves if they’re listening, Do you have? Do you have a sustainable business model? Has your have your financials grown from over the last three years? You take a look at 20, 22, 23, 24 and now you’re to date 2025. What are you projecting for 2026? Are you increasing in sales? Are you decreasing sales? What’s happening? Do you have the appetite to go out and acquire symbiotic companies or companies that will provide symbiotic relationship to yours? If you’re an HVAC company, can you go buy a plumbing company? Everybody’s talking about plumbing companies these days.
Joshua Kornitsky: I have several clients in in that space.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah, Cody Sanchez says go buy a laundromat. Great, right. But should you just run off and buy a laundromat? Unlikely. Unless you. Unless you have the right self-talk. And to your point, where do you start? Start by analyzing the thoughts that you have in your head about what you believe this journey of business means to you.
Joshua Kornitsky: So, as I mentioned earlier, talking about EOS, EOS is based first and foremost on on core values. And I’m going to drive a somewhat tenuous line to narrative from core values. But in my brain, those are deeply connected, because the story of the core values of of your organization is the story of who your organization is. So maybe the line’s not so tenuous, but when when I look at it through my lens, if I don’t understand who they are and what they do, more importantly, if they don’t understand who they are and what they do, um, often companies are still trying to be all things to all people. And when you find yourself in that situation as the organization, I always stress the need to, to focus, to, to bring, to do less, better rather than more poorly. And, and in the question that occurs to me naturally as we’re talking is, okay, so Abby, you said that. What if you look at your financials for three years? The first question I have is, okay, so I just looked at my financials. And you know, two out of the three are crap. Does that mean I don’t have any any chance in talking to you guys that I’m just shit out of luck till I get my stuff together? Or is there value in reaching out?
Abhi Golhar : So I still believe there’s value in reaching out. We’ll give you a starting point.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Abhi Golhar : Both from a financial perspective and also from a narrative perspective and what the narrative needs to be. So the next time you reach out, after you’re fixed, after you’ve fixed your stuff.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right.
Abhi Golhar : It could be a more productive conversation. But Lafayette will step in when, let’s say you’ve got a productive company, you’re between ten, 15, 20, $30 million in revenue and you’re looking at acquiring a competitor or 2 or 3. The banks have turned you down because they don’t believe you can do it. And what you really need is backing by somebody that has the assets, that has the capital markets access that you don’t have.
Joshua Kornitsky: And I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you’re at the that Lafayette is willing to at least look at less conventional approaches. I don’t I don’t want to say that we’re talking about subprime or anything like that. But if if a traditional a traditional bank is going to make a loan, if they look at it, it adds up and and they’re going to make enough money for them to consider it. And that’s the end of their discussion. If they’re not going to make enough money, if they think it’s too risky because a table somewhere tells them that it is. That’s it. Deal’s dead. But is that a fair, a fair, broad generality about Lafayette? No, that that they’re that they have the the broader perspective.
Abhi Golhar : We are bringing New York capital to Main Street.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. So yes.
Abhi Golhar : The answer is yes.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. I push you on it only because I believe that there’s a there there are brilliant ideas right now that suffer from lack of exposure, which ultimately translates to to lack of either guidance or funding, and knowing that there may be an avenue or an opportunity. And we’re not talking about, you know, Jim and Mary in the garage who are trying to build the next robot. We’re talking about technologies and approaches and products and things that are already underway and in, in production that may have other approaches. Uh, and to me, I like that because I think that that that level of creativity is what has has been largely snuffed out by traditional finance.
Gillian Rabin: And I was just going to I was going to jump in with, uh, the statistic that I read recently talking about traditional banks, they’re now funding only 23% of leveraged buyouts. Um, and so you have private credit that funds 77% of that. And I think that speaks to this kind of wave of the creativity and like the nontraditional sense of, of, of these loans and, and the credit financing.
Abhi Golhar : So yeah. And to that point, if you’re a business and you’re thinking about how do I get the capital markets access, you’ve got to do it a couple different ways. One move to New York, right. And spend two years humping it in meetings, daily meetings with investment bankers.
Gillian Rabin: That’s quite the narrative.
Speaker6: Which is quite.
Abhi Golhar : The right, literally. And fingers crossed, hoping somebody will take a chance. And if they do take a chance, it’s going to cost you for two, three, $400,000 in an upfront retainer just to go get them. All right. So that’s the that’s.
Speaker6: The problem number one.
Joshua Kornitsky: I was part of a of a startup that went through that. And and the reason I’m sitting here right now is because I did not get it. We you know, we didn’t get the money because no matter how well put together we were, there was always somebody who had it at the next level, who had every duck in in its proper row, who had their narrative, who could tell their story. And lo and behold, the dollars went there.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah. The question you need to be asking yourself is, are you the prettiest girl at the bar? And and that’s what I know.
Joshua Kornitsky: I’m not.
Abhi Golhar : I mean.
Joshua Kornitsky: I’ve accepted this.
Abhi Golhar : I have to, um. If you’re the prettiest girl at the bar, you are going to get approached. And that approach is exactly what we’re saying, right? We are aligning operators, capital and narrative. These are the three things that are universally, uh, not accepted. It’s not the right word, but they’re universally required. If you want that level of access outside of just paying for it. And if you do pay for it, you don’t even know if the guy or the gal is going to be successful.
Joshua Kornitsky: Understood.
Abhi Golhar : And that’s a risk that you run.
Joshua Kornitsky: Excuse me.
Abhi Golhar : Or if, you know, gives you a glimpse into a potential future. And we can run that roll up strategy with you and potentially for you using assets that we can back you with.
Joshua Kornitsky: Well. And so now you you touched on the next area I wanted to talk about which is the operators. Right. We’ve been talking about the financial side of things. Um, when you engage with someone and let’s just assume that that they’ve I don’t want to call it a barrier or a hurdle, but but simply, they are the right organization to align with with they they are in the right place in their market. They’ve achieved a level of success that they have opportunities ahead of them. Um, they don’t always have the right operators. So what happens? Again, the answer is always going to be it depends. Speaking in generalities. How do you help?
Gillian Rabin: First we listen. Um, and I think for me, the thing that drives me, the thing that I’m really passionate about, is obviously helping people, but understanding how to help them. I love people’s stories, and I’m a fervent believer that the more you speak, the less you learn. And so I first wanted fully understand where you’ve been, why you chose this route, how you became successful to the point where you are now and what is driving you to grow. And I want to know about your kids, and I want to know about your dog who might be sick. And I want to know all the things that go on into your life, because they do affect your business.
Joshua Kornitsky: Absolutely.
Gillian Rabin: And so once I, once Lafayette and Oak has that understanding, that’s kind of the jumping off point for how we can create that compelling narrative, because where you are right now may not be where you want to be. And so it’s understanding the past, the present, combining that into how that helps push you forward to the future. Um, so.
Joshua Kornitsky: That speaks to me, and I understand that completely because I, I want to ask rather than tell, how often do they do the operators you talk to know the answer to where they want to be. Truly. I want to be at X number. Okay. But is that is that it? Is it just $20 million? You can drop dead and everything’s fine.
Abhi Golhar : I mean, we right. Yeah. There’s a tax strategy for that, actually.
Joshua Kornitsky: I can.
Abhi Golhar : In.
Joshua Kornitsky: The Hitchhiker’s Guide you can spend a year dead for legal purposes, but.
Abhi Golhar : And then. And then vote. Yeah. Um, that’s too politically charged. Too soon, maybe too soon. Um, we’re too late. Or.
Joshua Kornitsky: Sadly, I fear you’re right.
Abhi Golhar : Uh, so. Okay. You you have to know. What the hell is the question?
Joshua Kornitsky: The question is regarding, uh, if you don’t have the right operator.
Abhi Golhar : Oh, okay. So you look at yourself and see if this is what you even want for your future. And if you don’t want this for your future, then fire yourself and bring somebody else on, and it gives you the ability to say, hey, I can actually step into something that I wanted to do this entire time, but I’ve been forced to do or I’ve had to do because nobody else needed or should have or could have done it. And that’s just taking a moment in time and a breath to see it.
Joshua Kornitsky: So I want to push you on that one, because I would tell you in, in my personal experience in working with business owners, that is the right answer. Let’s go with 50% of the time, but less than 10% of the the operators are willing to admit or take that step. How do you help them with that? How do you help them understand that that uh, I’m going to segue, but it’s related. There’s a wonderful titled book that I’m not a huge fan of, but it’s a great title called, uh, what Got You Here won’t get you there. And I’m going to. Are you familiar with the book? So to summarize for anyone that doesn’t know is by being a belligerent jerk. You pushed your company this far, but you can’t get to the next level by continuing to be a belligerent jerk, because you’re now doing business where you are no longer the biggest fish in the pond. The pond just got a lot bigger, and you’re a lot smaller now. And that strategy doesn’t work here. And I tie that back to that same level of understanding of, hey, I you know, it’s usually I’m the savior. I’m, I’m, I’m sales, I’m customer service. I’ve done all of it. And we’ve gotten to $10 million. How can I possibly step away until the heart attack? And then they find. But.
Abhi Golhar : Right. Well, to that point, if you want to exit, ten out of ten business owners will have an exit event in their lifetime.
Joshua Kornitsky: Planned or unplanned.
Abhi Golhar : Correct.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Abhi Golhar : That’s 100% success rate. Sure. Right. Um, ten out of ten people on this planet will die. Yeah.
Gillian Rabin: Also 10% exit rate.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah. Planned or unplanned, maybe, I don’t know. That’s a darker hole. Um, but if you want an exit in your business, if you want a succession, a proper succession plan with somebody stepping up and saying, I want to run this, and you want to spend time with your spouse at the end of the day, and you’ve given 25, 30 years. The single biggest challenge that you will have is removing yourself from the business. If you want, your value drops, man. So if you’re doing $1 million a year in EBITDA and you’re the only person running the business, there’s no way on God’s green earth that you’re going to get five to 6 to 7 times EBITDA in valuation. It’s one at best, and you might get a little bit of cash for it. So if you’re listening to this and you’re the only person in your business and you don’t have iOS, or if you don’t have have an operating system, you don’t have people wake up and smell the roses, your valuation is going to suck. And the reality that you’ll eventually face is going to be from some business owner. Excuse me? Some business broker that you don’t know who’s glorified real estate agent saying your business is worth X because you’re still running it, right?
Joshua Kornitsky: And and everything you’re saying resonates with me because unfortunately, I’ve I’ve lived it and borne witness to it because when you have a single point of failure in any system, yeah, that system doesn’t have a lot of value. Um, so when we can get them to see the wisdom in that and plan the transition out, now you’ve got a vacuum. So how how do you help them as an organization. Do you find other key executives? Do you? Do you have a pool of resources that you’re able to bring to bear?
Gillian Rabin: Mhm.
Abhi Golhar : It’s a combination of a couple of things. Um, one it’s I need to understand your mental baggage before we start moving forward because now it’s a completely new relationship. Right. If you’re starting, if you, if you just had a breakup and you’re starting to date somebody new, you’re not going to, uh, you’re not going to move that baggage from your previous relationship into the new one. Right? And if you did, you’d get caught flat footed and have a very tough conversation with with your with your new significant other. Right. Um, I’ve done that. Sucked hard conversations. Right. So that’s that’s the first piece. The second piece is. Yes. If we’re looking at an acquisition strategy, we may not even need to find people, because if we’re acquiring other businesses, we’re inheriting people. Now, the question is, do we have the right culture fit and what is the integration risk? What is the narrative that these now 2 or 3 companies that are banding together for a size significantly larger, sizable valuation. What what is the is are these companies disparate in nature? Do we have what financial challenges do we have? What cultural people challenges, integration ops challenges are the right people in the right seats? And if they’re not, we got to move things around. And then this is really where you come in where it’s I need to get into the minds of all these folks to say, well, are you are you even right for this? Right.
Gillian Rabin: And I think it comes down to something that people are inherently not great at, and it’s not a practice skill. I think enough both in business and in personal life. Um, and that’s just self-reflection, honest to God self-reflection. And by God, I just mean yourself. Like, are you lying to yourself? Um, you know, it’s a real, uh, look at what are your strengths and what are your weaknesses? Genuinely, where do you thrive best? Where do you fall short? And how can you either work on those short, like the shortcomings and try to improve those things? Or where can you find other people who can bolster those shortcomings? So you can just focus on the things that you’re really good at, because that’s an okay thing too. Sorry.
Joshua Kornitsky: No, no, that’s hugely insightful. My question is, is, is that something you’re able to help organizations navigate? Well, that’s that’s that’s an arranged marriage in some cases or at least partially arranged marriage where you’re bringing folks in who who did not sign up to suddenly be part of the widget company over here? Sure. Because they make grommets over here and they never thought grommets and widgets would go together.
Gillian Rabin: And that’s where the narrative becomes incredibly important. But you can’t start a narrative until the the person you’re crafting a narrative with about them is honest with themselves. And so it’s it’s about getting the honesty from people. And and I think to your question earlier about, you know, can you actually make people see that they want to fire themselves? Sometimes I think it’s just helping them get to where the reality is, and then they they end up coming to that conclusion on their own.
Joshua Kornitsky: There’s a spiritual level to this, and I don’t say that with any humor. Right. Because you have to that that level of honesty, that level of of self-determination and self qualification or disqualification is more than most people to bring to work.
Gillian Rabin: Absolutely. I mean.
Joshua Kornitsky: It’s not there.
Gillian Rabin: And human beings, we are we are creatures of adaptation. And like you were saying earlier, being this belligerent, like kind of, you know, hard headed guy who just kept pushing, everybody might have gotten you to a certain level, but now you’re in a new environment, right? And so are you going to adapt or are you going to continue on where you’re not seeing the same return that you were in the previous environment? And that is ultimately up to you. But, um, you’ll, you know, see different outcomes from those decisions.
Abhi Golhar : So to your point, are we going to marry a salmon farm and a plumbing company? No, we’re not going to do that. That’s that’s right. But but but that’s like kind of crazy, right. Like we’re not sure. But if we have the narrative and the story and we all agree as company A as, I don’t know, what is this.
Gillian Rabin: Good mood juice.
Abhi Golhar : Good mood juice. Plumbing. Co. Right.
Gillian Rabin: Oof! Oh my.
Abhi Golhar : Gosh. Okay. Maybe.
Gillian Rabin: What a horrendous name.
Joshua Kornitsky: Abc plumbing.
Gillian Rabin: Abc plumbing.
Abhi Golhar : Abc plumbing. If we all agree that ABC plumbing is ready to take on acquisitions and they’ve done well financially and they’re just looking for this leg up. What is what is the next five years look like? Are we doing a plumbing roll up? Are we doing a home services roll up two completely different things, right? Plumbing versus plumbing, HVAC, roofing, landscaping, etc. and if that’s the case, then we need to strategically start looking at companies, slash competitors, slash whatever in whichever region. So let’s get super specific on region. Let’s get super specific on what we’re looking for. And then also the culture of the organization we want to go by. If the culture of the organization we’re going to go by is rotten from day one by I don’t want you, I do not care how profitable you are.
Joshua Kornitsky: How do you assess that.
Abhi Golhar : 30, 60, 90 days?
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. Boots on the ground. Yep.
Abhi Golhar : Observing every time. Every single time.
Joshua Kornitsky: Do you use any tools like culture index or predictive? You know, any of that type of stuff as well?
Abhi Golhar : Yes. Personality tests, I mean, I don’t have a subscription to Culture Index, but as long as I have a pretty good understanding of what your shadow behaviors are like, genetics does a really good one.
Joshua Kornitsky: Huge fan.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah, I did one. I always do one with all the all my business partners and it’s like, hey, here are these shadow behaviors, right? He’s short and he wants to be tall. All right. As a result, he’s you know, he’s he’s always pain in the ass around people. Um, but that blend shows them and shows me how I can what I need to do for them, what they need to do for me, and how we can just be better together. So it helps coach us. And what I’m really looking for is how do I how do I respond to my shadow behaviors. And then how will I respond to theirs? How do I create a a gap in time if we’re in a high stress, stressful situation or high whatever pressured situation? Sure. Are we going to take a minute and make it feel like a second, or are we going to take a minute and and really have it feel like an hour? So we give it room to breathe like like a perfect, um, like you would never, ever, ever drink. A 2018 Napa cab from Dariush like a Darius. Two Napa cab from 2018. That particular vintage. You would never drink that tight. Like you would never drink that the day it was bottled. Never, never. You’re gonna wait, like, five years on that. Okay, but but, like.
Gillian Rabin: I’m going with them.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah, well, I’m so fresh.
Joshua Kornitsky: Wine. Not good.
Gillian Rabin: Remember, this is one of his shadows.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah, exactly. I’m backpedaling. Um, but what you want to do instead is you want to decant it? Sure. You want. You want to let the air hit it, right? You want to violently pour it into the decanter and let the oxygen create the complexity, which is that 2018 Napa cab from Dariush. The Darius two, if you’re listening, it’s a really good bottle of wine.
Gillian Rabin: If you’re listening.
Joshua Kornitsky: You can sponsor.
Abhi Golhar : Bottle.
Joshua Kornitsky: I’ve had one bottle in Texas many years ago. When we’re done, I have to now look to see what? What it was just so I can find out.
Abhi Golhar : Yes. I want to jump into collecting wine because I realized, like, I bought two bottles and they’re like $350 a bottle. Now, I opened both of them, drank them. Whatever. Right. Great celebrations. $900 a bottle. I’m like, you’ve got to be kidding. The inflation on these things is so great. Anyway, I digress. Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: Um, well, and I want to I want to take an aside here just because I don’t, I do my best to never assume that everybody’s following along on every point in talking about genetics, talking about culture index. The the analysis of personality and profile has become a really, really, I want to say succinct, but it’s the wrong word. It’s become a much better informed science than what a lot of people know as disc analysis or predictive index from the late 80s and the early 90s. And what I’ll share with you, because I actually I happen to be very fortunate to know the top genetics trainer in the southeast, a guy named Kelvin Redd. If you don’t know him, I’ll introduce you to him. He’s been a guest on the show. Okay. Um. And I’ve had the opportunity to work directly with him. And what I learned more than anything else. And that I want to share for anybody listening, is that these tests do not say that Gillian is terrible when it comes to attention to detail. Randomly speaking, what it says is that her natural state may be less attention to detail. She is more than capable of having 100% attention detail. It will simply take more of her energy to do that.
Gillian Rabin: Mhm.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s the piece. I think a lot of people misunderstand that. You’re not just red or yellow or green or this number or that number. None of these tell you anything other than the trend of the individuals. But having that insight and as Abby was saying, having the ability to see how it interacts or meshes or doesn’t mesh. That’s where we get insight in. Going back to our bigger point of when two cultures get together, whether willing or not willing, because in this case, I’m referring to to the leadership or the staff rather than ownership. Ownership knows what’s happening, but the staff suddenly finds out that there’s somebody with their title at this other company. And, you know, the default behavior is panic. It’s not, oh, I’m sure we’ll work together. Well.
Gillian Rabin: For sure.
Abhi Golhar : And a lot of this too is discussed well in advance of closing. Right. Like, hey, this is going to be a great marriage. Here’s the here are the optics. Here’s here’s the messaging for the team. And then the seller of company of company B that we go acquire. That seller may sit on the board of advisors or something like that. There may be a mentor or coach depending on what stage of life they’re in. If we’re working with a 45 year old who wants to buy, competitors and competitors are 75, 80 years old, right? You know, like the older gentleman or the older lady, like they’re they’ll want to step out and they’ll want to do so with the right tax incentives and the right quality of life and the right team and the right whatever, when they normally wouldn’t have that. And so going back to this entire idea of operator first, then understanding the narrative and then understanding the capital stack gives us two very clarifying, uh, words. We can track clarity and confidence. Does this give us the clarity to do what we need to do? Right? That’s number one, right? Number two, the confidence. Do we have the confidence in the teams to actually execute this this plan that we’ve built? Do we have the confidence in ourselves to execute this plan that I want. Enter the momentum matrix. If you have low clarity and low confidence, you’re in this state of paralysis. If you have high clarity and low confidence, you’re you’re wavering. You’re like, man, I don’t really know what to do. But I’m like super clear that I should be trading crypto, right? Great. I just I just don’t know how to do it. Like that’s high clarity. Low confidence. Um, you can have low clarity. High confidence. You can be the guy that goes to the gym, talks smack about the guy that’s benching 400 pounds. And, you know, I’ll just talk smack to this guy and then leave strategy. Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: And results every time.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah. And then leave and then like, I’ll just like build a nice pump going, like doing 5 pound dumbbells for like three sets of ten reps and then leave. Right. Sure. That’s that’s low clarity. High confidence. Right. Walking in with a big ego. The state of momentum though is when you have high clarity and high confidence. The trick is to realize that some of the best teams on the planet will fall out of the state of momentum of this zone, of momentum. The question is, how do you are you equipped enough to catch yourself? A great example of this is Lululemon. Lululemon. Over the last many years, they captured the yoga market, right? Sure. The yoga trend trend. But yoga market. Now they have such a massive issue with leadership that nobody wants to buy Lulu right now. They’re like, you guys need to get your shit together. Right? Right. So they’ve lost momentum and they’ve catered to almost anything and everybody. To your original point, and when Steve Jobs left Apple the very first time, same thing happened. Sure. Sorry. I’m hitting the table when I’m not supposed to hit the table. But but this is what happened, right? Apple was selling, what, 18, 19 different products. And then Steve came back. He was he was hired back to Apple the second time. And then he took it down to three. So this, this this this idea that you have, you can build momentum for yourself Inside your companies. And when you have the right operator, you can develop the right story. The unlock is access to capital markets.
Joshua Kornitsky: The missing piece.
Abhi Golhar : The missing piece. And Lafayette and Oak will help you get all these ducks in a row, if you will, to then see the maximum potential value of your business in five years.
Joshua Kornitsky: So again, asterisks. Sure. It depends. What what is the average length of engagement? Because it sounds like there’s an awful lot of work that has to happen. And it’s clearly, clearly highly tailored to the individual organizations that you’re working with. What does an engagement look like? It’s got to be a lot longer than longer than a day.
Abhi Golhar : You know why? Five years.
Joshua Kornitsky: Because I presume it takes at least half of that. Just to answer the first part of the question.
Abhi Golhar : Well, yeah, that’s that’s part of it.
Joshua Kornitsky: I mean, in Fullness.
Abhi Golhar : Yes, but from a tax strategy perspective, five years you don’t want to sell. Like if you’re listening to this and you’re wondering, okay, why is Abby droning on and on and on and saying five years like five times? It’s because the 1202 tax treatment that you get by holding on to your rollover equity or by holding on to your business once you elect to do a shsps, which is called a qualified small business stock, if you hold on to that for a period of five years, you can get, I believe. Don’t quote me on this ChatGPT it. Okay, okay. You can you can get up to ten times your basis in the company tax free, both federal and state, which is nuts.
Joshua Kornitsky: Five years. It is.
Abhi Golhar : Five years.
Gillian Rabin: It is.
Abhi Golhar : It is because we’re going to come in and take an equity piece not in your company but at the holding Co.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right.
Abhi Golhar : And we’re going to go do all this. We’re going to identify the narrative. You could talk continue to talk about that. But we’ll identify the right operators. We’ll will identify the right narrative. We have the ability to find the right team members should you need them. We have the ability to find acquisition targets should you need them.
Joshua Kornitsky: And in that piece we didn’t touch on. And that’s actually a huge, huge question for me. Right. Because that is um, many well managed organization strategy is that acquisition of whether it’s competition or collaboration or expansion, but they don’t know where to begin with that because that’s not the market. Um, broadly speaking, has gotten so convoluted from the BS of of potential investment potential buyers who have largely evaporated, you know, the the people willing to throw $1 million at an idea just aren’t around very much anymore. I have lots of ideas, but I haven’t found any of the millions they were throwing. Um, but the reality is, is, is that if you’re looking. A dear friend of mine was trying to buy, a business in the trades. He was in the trades. Previously. He was looking to buy one. He could not find another company that would take him seriously till he sat down with financials with them, because they’ve all had so many door knockers that that have expressed a level of interest that was never real. So if if that facilitation is available through Lafayette Nohc of knowing legitimate, for lack of a better term opportunities or or target acquisitions, that’s that’s a big offering.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah. So yes, the answer to your question comment is yes. Um, we have all gotten starry eyed with the idea that we’ve been sold by we’ve been sold to by Cody Sanchez, by Walker Deibel by, um, just just to name a few. By by Alex Hormozi. Um, well, Alex does something a little different, uh, by, um, Roland Frazier. And there’s one other guy, uh, Jeremy Harber. All these guys say you can buy business for no money down, and all you got to do is knock on thousands and thousands and thousands of business doors. You know where else this has been prevalent in real estate?
Joshua Kornitsky: Yes.
Abhi Golhar : Yuck.
Joshua Kornitsky: Yes.
Abhi Golhar : So now every business owner has, has, has just eyes glazed over the fact that I’m going to get five offers to buy my business, no money down. They’re going to have no financials and they’re just going to be like, okay, here’s another, here’s another cesspool of degenerates that that’s going to sit here and want to buy my company. But it’s the way in which you craft your Loi, your letter of intent, the way in which you communicate from day one, your presence, your value, your authority needs to show up well before you do. It’s literally that simple. Right.
Joshua Kornitsky: And it’s a herald having having all your goodness called before you walk through the door. Right.
Abhi Golhar : That’s something that I learned from Jillian. One of the things that I learned from her in I don’t have any acting background. I don’t really have a whole lot of a storytelling background, but I learned that because for the total number of times we’ve spent, whether it’s on the phone or happy hours or whatever, I’ve always taken away that if you have a compelling story, that’s what you need to share. Nobody gives a shit about who you are. They care about the story. They care about your the mission and why they should care. And if that’s the core pillar content, if that’s the core pillar of that’s going to drive a acquisition strategy. That’s the only thing that you need to focus on. And you don’t need Lafayette and Oak for that. You don’t need Lafayette and Oak to go set your finances right. Go find an accountant. Right. There are plenty of them. You don’t need Leno. Uh, you don’t need Leno. If you spent enough time with ChatGPT in a narrative, you don’t need Leno in the beginning. If you want a polished narrative from somebody that makes movies and films, then yes.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right.
Abhi Golhar : Hi, Gillian.
Gillian Rabin: Right.
Abhi Golhar : And then if you if after that, you’ve found businesses to buy and the SBA seven loan isn’t working anymore because their max limit is $5 million and you’re getting tossed around like everybody else. And if you want to play with the elites, then give me a buzz. Give Gillian a buzz.
Joshua Kornitsky: It it sounds and I don’t mean this in the in the legal sense, it sounds like a partnership. It sounds like it’s collaboration. It sounds like in order to really get everything you want to get out of either scaling or exiting.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: Working with or collaborating with Lafayette is going to help you get there because yes, you can. You can do it. Look, you can absolutely bake the cake for your wedding all by yourself.
Gillian Rabin: There are so many recipes online.
Joshua Kornitsky: I mean, they are all online and you can watch them there to learn how to frost it. That’s right. You can. And I’m sure that the love that you put into that wedding cake will translate onto the plate. But if your intent is to have it look fantastic and flawless.
Gillian Rabin: Or if your intent is to have it look fantastic and flawless without putting in hours and hours of learning labor on your end too. So you can better enjoy the experience of the wedding itself.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah. So we’re in New York every month, right? The only reason that I feel I’ve been able to get access to this world and offer it is, um, I’m a kindred spirit. I did national radio on Wall Street for a decade, talking to 3 million people a day live and prerecorded two different shows, and it was that was my entry point. I’ve interviewed almost every every every banker, every investment banker, PE, private credit, etc. and I can talk the talk, kind of walk the walk.
Joshua Kornitsky: Sure.
Abhi Golhar : And every one of them will tell you Main Street business. They don’t understand the vocabulary. How do you know? How do you know to play the game if you don’t know the game exists? That’s exactly what we’re dealing with here. Farmers have the exact same same situation. 2024. Over 400,000 farmers closed their doors and walked away. They left and we’re doing nothing about it. They just don’t have a platform. They don’t have a framework.
Joshua Kornitsky: And they broadly speaking, they and this is where we started. They don’t know what they don’t know. Right, right. And and unfortunately and I don’t want to use names here because it’s not for me to call out what I think. It’s just the reality is there are people who profit from misleading and people who can, people who do profit from, um, laying out and telling a narrative and a story of fast reaches, you know, done easy. And if nothing else, from the five years that we’ve been talking about is the five years tells me that it once again turns out that good things take time. And it’s hard work. And I know, lo and behold, that’s a giant shock to everybody. But the reality is, is that the promise of fast money is pretty much always bullshit. It just.
Gillian Rabin: Is.
Joshua Kornitsky: Other than a scratch off ticket. And even then, the if you want to know when billionaires will get taxed, look at the guy in Arkansas that won $1.8 billion on a single single ticket. Guess who got taxed? That guy got taxed. Yeah.
Gillian Rabin: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, to your point about like, narratives that that kind of skew away from the truth, I would just say that that I don’t even want to call it a narrative. I just call that propaganda. Like, you’re you’re you’re misleading people and it’s a lie, and lies can be beautifully told, so beautifully told. But unfortunately, Unfortunately, lies are, uh, are not reality. And it’s not going to give you the thing that you want. Um, and.
Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah, but it leads to that walking away.
Gillian Rabin: It does it does lead to that.
Joshua Kornitsky: Because you feel led to believe that. Look, it’s it’s a, it’s a, it’s $1 million business. Um, but, you know, because we followed these three bullet points that we, we heard this one influencer talk about, it should be a $7 million business.
Gillian Rabin: That’s right.
Joshua Kornitsky: And as my father rest in peace in the car business my father used to tell him, the book says it’s worth that won’t shake the book. And when the money falls out, sell it.
Gillian Rabin: Right.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s that’s just not how reality is. But unfortunately, it goes back to what we were talking about. Where you’ve got polluted water now?
Gillian Rabin: Yes.
Joshua Kornitsky: And and when you’ve got things that are, that are at the very least obfuscated where, where it’s difficult to tell truth from fiction, you need to collaborate with someone who ultimately has your interests at heart. Right. Because when when you’re in the boat together. It sure helps when everybody is bailing water.
Gillian Rabin: Absolutely. That’s right. I had a professor in college once say, uh, he was a technical theater professor, so we would always build all of the sets. And he would say, you can have it good, and you can have it fast, but it will not be cheap. You can have it fast and you can have it cheap, but you will not be good. You have to pick two. Yes. And so I think to the point of the five years. Yeah. Good. Fast and cheap. Um, and to the point of the five years. Yes. You have the tax, the wonderful tax benefit, but you also have the time and you have and time is such a valuable asset. Um, yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: One of my fellow implementers, and I wish I could tell you who, but it was at a conference, made the statement that our only inventory is time. That’s it. And and from that insight, I have moved forward in my own life. Understanding how and where I use my time is is dramatically important. And if I’m in the position where I own a business and I’m looking to grow or I’m looking to exit, you have to put the value on that time to understand that if you invest it wisely, you’ll you’ll likely benefit much more than if you just rush to the wonderful sign on the side of the road that says we buy businesses written in marker. I don’t know who their market is, but I love those.
Gillian Rabin: I love them.
Joshua Kornitsky: We buy houses.
Gillian Rabin: For. Have you ever called one? Have you ever called one of those signs?
Joshua Kornitsky: I have.
Gillian Rabin: Not. I sure have. I, I just love a little.
Joshua Kornitsky: Rabbit singles in your area as well, because I’ve seen that sign.
Gillian Rabin: No, but there was a sign. I saw there was a sign that was like, uh, it was like fly fish number. And I was like, absolutely. And I called that man, and he was like, hello? And I was like, hi, I saw your sign that said Fly Fish. And he was like, yeah. And I was like, what are you are you giving me the fish? Or are you teaching me how to fly fish? Like what’s the he was like, well, I’ll take you out on the boat and we’ll teach you how to fly fish right now. And I was like, all right, and I, I loved it like, I was like, how many know I did not go?
Abhi Golhar : I’m like the both of us. Immediate concern. Whoa. Gee.
Gillian Rabin: No, I didn’t go, but I was I was very my curiosity was insatiable. I had to I had to know how many people call. Like, what? Have you taken people out on your boat already? Like, what’s this? Return on a on a marker sign?
Abhi Golhar : Have they come back alive?
Gillian Rabin: Right? Have they come back alive? Are they the bait for the fish?
Joshua Kornitsky: I was going to say. Or did the fish eat extra?
Abhi Golhar : Right, exactly. But just so much depth to this story.
Gillian Rabin: But everybody has a different narrative, you know what I mean?
Joshua Kornitsky: Uh, I can’t wait for that movie.
Gillian Rabin: Yes, it’s gonna be called Fly Fish. Um.
Joshua Kornitsky: Nice. Yeah. Somebody already made one called signs, right? Yeah.
Abhi Golhar : Exactly. Uh, yeah. The jaws of death.
Joshua Kornitsky: So let me ask this question. And this is a question that I ask a lot of my guests, and I feel like we’ve touched on this, but I want to ask this specifically from from both of you, what are the common misconceptions? What are what are the assumptions everybody makes about whether it’s scalability, whether it’s telling their story, whether it is their ability to sell. What are the things that people assume that may or may not always be the case? Because common wisdom can kill you.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah.
Gillian Rabin: I think that if you are not invested, fully invested, then nobody else will be. So I think that’s for me, that is a common misconception that people are like, I have this idea and I, you know, they build up a business, you know, and then they want to scale it, but they don’t they don’t.
Joshua Kornitsky: Want.
Gillian Rabin: To be in the boat. Right? They don’t want to be bailing the wall, the water, um, or they want to be the only person bailing the water. I think it’s it’s back to what we were talking about before, about self-reflection and understanding. So, yeah, if you’re not invested, then who else will be? If you don’t understand why you are invested, then who else will be?
Abhi Golhar : Yeah, I would say to add to that, um, I can do this myself. Common misconception. I can put off thinking about succession planning. Another five years. Another one. I don’t need a capital strategy. I have my banker. That’s one my spouse will understand. That’s another. Um. My kids will always be there to run my business afterwards. That’s another one. Um, my team gets it. That’s another one. Um, my, I can I can scale any time that I want. That’s another one. Uh, I can read as many books on Amazon.com or on Kindle, or I can order whatever. And the knowledge is readily available. That’s another one. Um, I can go to New York and go get the go get the capital. That’s another one. Yeah. That’s easy. Right? That’s obviously.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right. Just knock on the door.
Abhi Golhar : Knock on the door.
Joshua Kornitsky: Hello. That may be the longest, but best answer. Right. Because those are all misconceptions. And and if it was easy, you would do it, everybody would be doing it.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah. Go do it. Go do it. Please. Right. You know, if you really wanted this, you could have it right now. You just have to invest the time. Five, ten, 15 years, build up the network, do all the things. Or there’s a bit of a simpler path. Give us a shout.
Joshua Kornitsky: I, I often encounter in the world that I work in that that I can do it myself mindset. And I always ask them some form of the question of simply. So when you have the unfortunate circumstance where, say, a previous client has decided to file suit against you. Do you immediately enroll in law school?
Gillian Rabin: Yes.
Joshua Kornitsky: You know, is is that your your strategy is no problem. Give me about five and a half, six years and let me pass the bar, and I’ll take care of this. Or do you call your lawyer? You know, if suddenly you’ll be.
Abhi Golhar : Your retainer.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right? If the IRS has a problem, do you? And they call your your controller or your CFO? Do you say, well, all right, hang on. First I got to take the four CPA tests, which my daughter is in the process of. So I had to throw that out there.
Abhi Golhar : Nice.
Joshua Kornitsky: One down, three to go.
Gillian Rabin: Shout out daughter.
Abhi Golhar : Yes.
Joshua Kornitsky: Um, and and the reality is, is no. Because you can’t do everything. And most successful business owners at some point do bonk their head against that wall and realize, okay, the best way to solve this is, is using Jillian’s triangle. You can have it fast, you can do it great. And you can save money, but you can’t have all three.
Gillian Rabin: Not all three at the same time.
Joshua Kornitsky: There was a book written in the 60s about data processing called The Mythical Man Month. And in it, and this is, uh, or the myth of the man month.
Abhi Golhar : Myth of the man month.
Joshua Kornitsky: Myth of the man month. And I’ll send it to you. I don’t even know if it’s in print, but I do have a copy. Ah, uh, within it. And understand this is literally talking about punch cards for data processing. He, the author, posits the concept that his term management must understand that you cannot hire nine pregnant women to get the baby here in a month.
Abhi Golhar : Warren Buffett said this. No, no, I don’t think he credited it.
Joshua Kornitsky: It just has stuck with me forever because.
Abhi Golhar : It’s so good.
Joshua Kornitsky: To every business I’ve ever worked with, because money can solve a lot of problems. And if you are in the, uh, the, the side of the finances where money is just a mechanism of keeping score, you’re very used to solving your problems with money, but money can’t solve every problem. Sometimes you have to put in those five years, sometimes you have to put in that time and your creativity. You have to care. You can’t fake that in us. We teach them that if you don’t care, they don’t care.
Gillian Rabin: Right.
Joshua Kornitsky: And that is so transparent. When you turn around and you look at the example you gave earlier of Steve Jobs, and you look at the way that he drove and inspired people. Nobody says he was nice. Yeah, a lot of people say he didn’t smell that well, but.
Gillian Rabin: Bathing wasn’t a priority. Not writing. The company.
Joshua Kornitsky: Was. But he he drove allegiance and he drove loyalty. And he actually drove creativity and passion because he knew the story. He wrote the story and was smart enough to hire the the people around him that helped, uh, massage that story so that it was much more effective than he was capable of of of espousing it.
Gillian Rabin: Well, and just like we were talking earlier about Steve Jobs and how when he was hired back, it went from 19 products to three. I think it’s a similar thing to people and your energy. So are you going to be the person that you know 19 like you people, you’re known for doing 19 different things? Uh, or are you going to be the person that’s known for doing three things really well. And that, I think, is.
Joshua Kornitsky: And that that multitasking mask is not effective no matter what you believe.
Gillian Rabin: And it can work for a short term, but eventually it, um, it’s tough. It exhausts you.
Joshua Kornitsky: Juggling chainsaws is never a good idea.
Gillian Rabin: Not for a long period of time. Maybe for the fly fishing guy.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah, maybe.
Joshua Kornitsky: I mean, he’s he’s a special skill.
Gillian Rabin: Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: So parting thoughts. What what should people who’ve taken the time invested the time to listen to this, that now understand that Lafayette Noack has a lot that they offer and that that collaboration is expressed over time and that there’s a lot to be gained. What what should they take away from from our time today? Tell us the story.
Gillian Rabin: The story. If you are ready to scale and you are ready to reflect on where you are now, where you were before, and where you want to go, give us a call and we can help you create a compelling narrative and help you help match you to the right capital in a timely manner. And five years is a timely manner, and we do so with a lot of care. Like I genuinely, we’re not people that just want an influx of of companies and we want to to truly be there, to truly see you, to truly understand so we can actually help you. Because for me, for Abbey, for everybody at Lafayette and Oak, we just want to see growth like truly developmental growth for the individual and for the business.
Joshua Kornitsky: I think that’s a very compelling story. And as we touched on in our dialog today, there’s a lot of spirituality. There’s a lot of heart that’s part of this dialog because in many cases, people’s businesses predate their their marriages or their children And in many ways, having walked this walk myself, my business felt like my child because I gave it life. I did it, I helped it grow.
Gillian Rabin: It’s an extension of who you are, your your time, your sweat, your blood, your tears, and your ideas.
Abhi Golhar : When I was in college forever ago, 2002 to 2006, I was at the center of a of a joint FBI Department of Justice investigation for mortgage fraud. I was working with.
Joshua Kornitsky: Say, at the center.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah. Exactly that. And until I realized that they weren’t after me because I ended up being a victim of mortgage fraud. They were after my mentor. Um, I was one of 54 victims. Um, I had purchased somehow, uh, four properties, inner city Detroit. I was $1 million in debt. And by the by the end of it.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right.
Abhi Golhar : I had filed for chapter seven bankruptcy. Discharged in 2008. I had four foreclosures on my record because the Bank of America wouldn’t take them over. And I was in a corner.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right.
Abhi Golhar : And when this investigation finished, I had only one person I had I had only one person that I can count on. That was me to redraw the lines of what I thought success would be. And then a month later, I turned 21. If you’re listening and you have this sense of wonder, you have this sense of man, I’m in a tough spot. You have the sense of, I know I’ve got to do this, but it’s not a priority right now, like working out or eating organic. I would encourage you to spend the next couple of hours or a couple of days and, and really sit with your thoughts and see what bubbles up, because Even though I was in a really tough spot. Looking back, I wouldn’t have changed a damn thing. And I encourage you to do the same thing.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s hard work.
Abhi Golhar : Yeah, it’s hard work.
Gillian Rabin: It’s reflection.
Joshua Kornitsky: And to your point earlier, Jillian, you do have to kind of sit with yourself to get there. Yeah. Um, I think it’s great guidance coming into the new year. It’s, uh, I’m not a big believer in, in, uh, New Year’s resolutions, but the reality is every day gives you the opportunity to start over. You don’t have to wait for any particular day on a calendar. Mhm. Um, thank you both.
Gillian Rabin: Thank you.
Joshua Kornitsky: Uh, so today my, my guests have been, uh, Abhi Golhar and Jillian Rabin. Um, both from Lafayette Oak, as it turns out. Um, follow them on social media. Yeah, we’ll get those links published. Uh, make sure that you, watch the videos. I know, Jillian, you’ve done some work in motion pictures. Sure have. And Abby, you’ve done some work everywhere. The momentum matrix. Do you have a book?
Abhi Golhar : I’m working on that. Okay. My agent says I need a book. So now I’m working on a book. And by me working on a book, I mean, ChatGPT working on a book.
Joshua Kornitsky: Well, that’s okay. Just talk to it and it’ll talk to you.
Abhi Golhar : And it’s a great conversation in the shower at 6 a.m.. Absolutely perfect.
Joshua Kornitsky: And when that book comes out, I’d love to have you back. And anything that we can do here to help promote you guys and the work you’re doing, I think it’s fantastic.
Abhi Golhar : Hey, thanks for having us on.
Joshua Kornitsky: Thank you. Um, this is Joshua Kornitsky professional EOS implementer and your host here on High Velocity Radio. Please join us next time. Thank you.

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.
Joshua Kornitsky: Welcome back to High Velocity Radio. I’m your host, professional, US implementer, Joshua Kornitsky. And I’ve really got a one of a kind, amazing guest here in the studio with me today. Today my guest is Terri Lonowski . Terri is a speaker, a coach, and the creator of the Soulful Listening Methodology. Her work focuses on helping leaders and organizations strengthen communication, build trust, and really improve workplace relationships. Terri brings a science grounded in human centered approach to leadership and connection lending neuroscience with practical application. Her perspective is rooted in real world experience and a deep commitment to meaningful listening. So I’m going to do my very best to be an excellent listener. Welcome, Terri. It’s a joy to have you here.
Terri Lonowski : Joshua, I am so excited to be here, and I can hardly wait to see what happens in our conversation.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s fantastic excitement, I love it. Um, so let’s begin with what brought you to this path, to this type of work. Because most people are all about talking, not about listening.
Terri Lonowski : Oh gosh, that’s such a great perspective. And what brought me here was I was coaching human centered design teams from across the nation. And human centered design, at the core of that is empathy. And empathy is used to shift programs on their ears to be more meaningful to the customers they serve. And these teams were competing to showcase workforce innovation at the white House.
Joshua Kornitsky: Wow.
Terri Lonowski : So a couple of different times, my teams got invited to go to the white House. And so that was very exciting. And I learned from that just how powerful empathy is. However, I also knew that there were major missing pieces in how we communicate, and at the same time, I was reviewing some research that indicated over half of the American population is lonely.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay, so I’m looking for the thread that connects these things. And yes, and I and I sort of see it, but but please help me connect the dots.
Terri Lonowski : Yeah. And you know, the health implications of feeling lonely is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
Joshua Kornitsky: Wow.
Terri Lonowski : With health risks now exceeding those of obesity. So this broke my heart. And I wonder, I wonder we have to be able to do better. And so I sequestered myself for two months to really unearth what made my relationships different, what made the way that I’ve been exposed to in early life and then evolve throughout my lifetime different? And out of that emerged what’s now known as soulful listening that has five simple elements.
Joshua Kornitsky: Will you share them with us?
Terri Lonowski : Oh, of course, I’d love to. So the first element of soulful listening is self-care.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Terri Lonowski : And rarely do we hear the direct connection between high quality self-care and high quality communication. But they are directly linked.
Joshua Kornitsky: And I certainly can understand it. I mean, it’s not it doesn’t make me scratch my head and say, why would that matter? But of course it would. The healthier you are, the more likely you are to be able to communicate clearly, I presume.
Terri Lonowski : Right. And in addition to that, it includes more than a bubble bath, although that could be fun, sure, but it includes things like what’s our self-talk? What’s that loop that’s going on in our head? Are we setting healthy boundaries?
Joshua Kornitsky: I that resonates a lot with me, because I do believe that the internal monologue sets the tone. And if you’re beating yourself up all the time, that comes through in your communication all the time.
Terri Lonowski : Oh, well said, well said. And it also includes things like, are we coming to our conversations with a higher degree of emotional intelligence? Are we self-regulating our emotions so we don’t come in just pummeling somebody?
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Terri Lonowski : Okay.
Joshua Kornitsky: Um, I certainly can understand that one. And I won’t give examples, but I think every human being can. Right. If if you’re in an agitated state, if you’re already, um, if you say have been driving in Atlanta traffic and then you walk in the door at home. Occasionally we can be short with our loved ones.
Terri Lonowski : Ah, indeed. Indeed. And have we gotten enough sleep? Sometimes that’s really under underrated on how important that is.
Joshua Kornitsky: I understand that. So that’s self-care, right?
Terri Lonowski : And when we take care of ourselves in the way that we just talked about, we’re ready for the second element of soulful listening, which is becoming fully present.
Joshua Kornitsky: Let’s talk about that because I don’t I don’t subscribe to any of the isms. If you’re gonna tell me that someone who’s 17 or 23, the ages of my daughters is guilty of X because of their age. That’s no different than in in my perspective, if you lump all people into a group, um, it’s no different than any other word you want to put on the front of the ism because you’re stereotyping. So I want to understand what you mean by that because it’s so easy to dismiss others.
Terri Lonowski : Yes. So becoming fully present, I imagine we’ve all been in situations where we can almost see the thought bubble of a person’s head with all the things they’re thinking about. We feel it. But when we’re in the presence of somebody that is really there for us, We feel that also. And so I’d like to share a way of getting there because it sounds kind of abstract.
Joshua Kornitsky: Absolutely.
Terri Lonowski : But if we can just kind of take notice of our body right now, just notice your body, shrug your shoulders a couple of times, up and down and up and down. Wiggle your toes. Okay. Now we’re going to take three intentional breaths. And the way we’ll do that will exhale all the way. And then we’ll breathe into the count of four. Hold and then breathe out to the count of six.
Joshua Kornitsky: Is that circular breathing. Is that what that’s called or is that something.
Terri Lonowski : It’s a little different than that. And there’s a reason that we exhale more than we inhale. So we’re not going to go into the science of that. We’re going to let’s just do it. Okay okay. Exhale all the way. Breathe in 234. Hold exhale Six old. Inhale. Hold. Exhale. Two. Three. Four. Five. Six. And the last time. Inhale. Hold. Exhale. Notice your body now.
Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah. I feel noticeably calmer. And I’m not I’m not a hyper guy. But I definitely can feel a bit of a sense of calmness. And that’s, uh, that’s a breathing, a similar breathing technique. Without going into the neuroscience to one that, that we use at home when, when one of one of our family gets particularly anxious, we, we count for and breathe a box for, for for for.
Terri Lonowski : Right, right. Yes. And that’s a great one to box breathing. Excellent. So when we truly take care of ourselves and become present like we just did, we’re ready for the third element of soulful listening, which is quantum listening.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Terri Lonowski : My way of describing that is if active listening and empathy had a love child.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Terri Lonowski : It would be this element. And it’s when we listen all in with every fiber of our being through our senses and maybe a little bit beyond.
Joshua Kornitsky: So that’s not that’s easy to describe. I don’t know how to do that physiologically other than to focus on you as you speak.
Terri Lonowski : Right. And, you know, and another thing to maybe have in mind is to enter that conversation with a sense of openness.
Joshua Kornitsky: And I think that’s an excellent, excellent point. But it must take some time to, to get comfortable with this concept for somebody who’s never heard it before. Right. It I, I don’t exactly know how to do it, but I certainly can give my undivided attention. Not look at my phone, not look at my watch, just look at you and try to focus on on what you’re saying.
Terri Lonowski : Right. That is that is great. And I’m a big proponent of start now start small.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Terri Lonowski : You know, whenever we enter a new body of information or we try a new exercise starting now and starting small is critical. You know, we’re not going to be an Olympic athlete the first time we put on a pair of tennis shoes.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s sadly true. Yes.
Terri Lonowski : Sadly true.
Joshua Kornitsky: As as as we say around my house, you have to eat the elephant in bites, right? You can’t try to take it all on at once. Yes. Um, any other suggestions for that? Fully intentional listening, right.
Terri Lonowski : And I had mentioned, you know, not playing out both sides of a conversation before you enter it.
Joshua Kornitsky: Sure.
Terri Lonowski : And that may sound like, well, of course, I would not do that, but it’s really easy to slip into, oh, we’ve been here before. He’s going to say this, I’m going to say that. And and there we go. So enter with an openness and have a couple of high quality questions in your back pocket.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Terri Lonowski : Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: All right. So that’s three.
Terri Lonowski : Three. And then the fourth one is what I call the secret sauce. And that’s inspired action. When we connect on this deeper level, we often gain insights into how we might be helpful to another person. You know, whether it’s making a connection on LinkedIn, whether it’s making a phone call, maybe it’s sharing a book you’ve just read that might be of great assistance to another person. We all have access to incredible resources. Sure. Yes. And so that’s, you know, from this insight that was gained, offering some help or taking some action, okay. Inspired action, no strings attached.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. So just, uh, and this is iOS, but my own verbiage as well. It’s that help first mentality. It’s it’s to to offer to do for someone else. Uh, and the minute you use this word, you negate the word. But it’s essentially an altruistic outlook, right? I can’t be intentionally altruistic because then I’m not being altruistic anymore.
Terri Lonowski : Yes, yes, I know you can’t get tripped up a little bit there. I can see that. I can see that. And so the last element of soulful listening is, is the feedback loop. And the reason that is so critical, we can have these great conversations. We can lean forward, not our head. Take it in, listen deeply, let a person know we heard them take action. But if we don’t let them know the individual we had this conversation with will, as most humans do, fill in the blanks that make up a story, and it’s almost always not accurate.
Joshua Kornitsky: And it’s from another version of that that I have heard from Brene Brown. From from reading her books is it’s never ever positive. I don’t think Terri was late today, hypothetically, because she won the lottery. She must have been hit by a bus. We don’t ever tell ourselves a positive reason why someone did or didn’t do something. We skew human nature to negative. Would you say that?
Terri Lonowski : That’s absolutely. And connecting it to conversations. The person that didn’t receive feedback didn’t wasn’t let known what happened. Well, boil and make up the story. They didn’t even care. They didn’t do anything. I am never going to open myself up again. Ever, ever ever. My great idea has gone flat, when in fact action may have been taken and the feedback could look simply like this. Hey, I heard what you said. I have this great connection on LinkedIn. I’m sending you both a message. Or here’s here’s a phone number. Give them a call or give them a heads up, you’re going to be reaching out. Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: And I can see if you’re following these five steps how that would change your interactions with just about everybody.
Terri Lonowski : So true.
Joshua Kornitsky: So I’m going to pause, because the first time that you and I talked about this, I asked you a question and I’m going to ask you the question again so that people understand this is not mumbo jumbo, Terri. Share with us your your actual education and background, please.
Terri Lonowski : Oh, okay.
Joshua Kornitsky: I think I think that I want to put it on record for anybody that’s like, oh, that sounds nice. So tell us your if you would real briefly what’s your background.
Terri Lonowski : I appreciate that. So I have a master’s degree in educational psychology. So that’s one thing I’m you know that’s where the neuroscience.
Joshua Kornitsky: Into the white.
Terri Lonowski : House.
Joshua Kornitsky: A couple of times.
Terri Lonowski : Really love that. And I am a TEDx speaker.
Joshua Kornitsky: I, and we’ll put that link when we publish. People need to see that.
Terri Lonowski : Yeah, yeah. And we’re really excited about that. We’re getting closer to 200,000 views and over 200 comments. So anyway, that just makes me kind of light up. And I have, as I had mentioned, showcased workforce innovation at the white House a couple of times.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right? So you’re a recognized expert in your field. And that’s the point that I really wanted to establish, um, without demeaning anyone. We live in a world where where these days you can put a flag up and say that you are X, Y, or Z, and people just nod and smile. But you’re the real deal. And I think that that’s something that’s really, really important for anybody listening to understand that this is backed up by knowledge, education and experience. This isn’t just fanciful thought. Um, and maybe you can hear in my tone I get defensive on your behalf, but it’s it’s because I want because I want people to understand that it’s rare to find a gem of this quality in in knowledge that is really, um, I’ll give the best example I can. It is simple, but not easy, right? You. There are five simple steps. They take some work to get them down, but it sounds like in just the breathing alone in 45 seconds, I could feel the impact of that.
Terri Lonowski : Um.
Joshua Kornitsky: Um. So. Meaning that I could feel the impact of the breathing on on myself. Um, so let me ask you then, with, with this concept, this methodology of soulful listening, what what’s possible as opposed to through traditional communication. Once you’ve got this in, in your tool belt as a tool that you’re able to use.
Terri Lonowski : Yeah. One thing that just kind of bubbles to the surface right now when you embody this, you know, you were talking about just kind of introducing people, but when you really embrace it and incorporate it into your life, how you are in one setting is how you are in all settings. So if you have an area of your life that you really kind of want to tweak some relationship skills, it will bleed over into others.
Joshua Kornitsky: So and that makes sense to me because truthfully, this is such a healthy way to approach things that if you are this way to the best of your ability at all times, you’re probably going to get a lot more out of life. As silly as that may broad, you know that that that’s boiling the ocean. That’s a big example. But if you follow those guidelines, where would it where’s the downside to it?
Terri Lonowski : Oh there isn’t. It’s, you know, it’s, um, it’s holistic. You know, we really look at it in a holistic approach to connecting with another, and we also connect with ourselves. How are we listening to ourselves?
Joshua Kornitsky: So, broadly speaking, I describe myself as an EOS implementer. I’m a leadership team, uh, coach, teacher and facilitator. How effective, how impactful is this? Because my mind goes towards leaders that I’ve met who are lacking in some, if not all, five of those skills. How impactful is this in your experience with leaders?
Terri Lonowski : Oh, it’s incredible. It’s just incredible. And and when we look at what’s happening in the workplace right now, I think Gallup, maybe a year or so ago, I came out with a study that indicated only about a third of people are fully engaged in the workplace.
Joshua Kornitsky: And that number is probably higher than reality.
Terri Lonowski : It’s I think it was 23%. But anyway, it it really reinforces the fact that we have breakdown in communication in the workplace and it is a very expensive breakdown. It’s costing when you have employees that say you pay somebody $100,000 a year and you’re really getting, um, maybe $30,000 of work out of them. Sure. You know, multiply that by your workforce.
Joshua Kornitsky: And that’s where this is. This is the real practical application. And and ultimately, while it will enhance the personal side of your life, let’s talk a little bit about the professional side. And, and if you, uh, take the soulful listening approach to, to just your, your professional relationships, what kind of changes have you seen with those you’ve taught?
Terri Lonowski : Yes. What I see is, you know, deeper engagement. And, you know, we’re we’re at a time in our world where we need solutions to really significant challenges. And to me, in order to really address those. We have to be the fullest expression of ourselves, our gifts and talents.
Joshua Kornitsky: And I can see that.
Terri Lonowski : And deep listening, or the soulful listening way is one way to unleash the potential that is locked up.
Joshua Kornitsky: Does it impact things? And this is loaded because I have to believe it does. But does it impact trust and confidence?
Terri Lonowski : Absolutely, absolutely. You know, when we, um, practice these five elements over and over again, it embeds integrity and confidence within relationships, whether they be personal or business. Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: Does it. So the breathing exercise, I told you I could feel a moment of of calmness. And I’m not a particularly violent storm of a guy. Right. But I could feel that. Are there other physiological changes that people experience, not just from the breathing but from all of it, really?
Terri Lonowski : Right when we hold the space for another person, which soulful listening allows us to do, the other person can access their higher reasoning because they would not be in fight or flight. When we’re in fight flight, we cannot access our prefrontal cortex.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay?
Terri Lonowski : Our higher reasoning is shut down. It’s not physiologically possible.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s an interesting point that I was not aware of.
Terri Lonowski : Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah. Because a lot again going leaning on leadership as just a broad concept. Uh, aggressive leadership styles have a tendency to put, um, downstream employees as I like to refer to them, because I don’t want to denigrate the role, just someone who’s a direct report of a leader. Um, aggressive leadership can can trigger that very quickly that that fight or flight. And it’s not that the leader themselves is trying to be intimidating, although sometimes they are, um, you know, leaders emulate what they believe is an effective strategy. And if and if you learn from a drill sergeant, you may think that’s the best way to do it. But as I’ve recently learned, drill sergeants actually care a great deal about the people under their control or under their, their, um, uh, under their care. You from the outside, you may not know that, but the reality is they’re there to make sure no one gets harmed or hurt, and they’re there to toughen the soldiers that they work with so that they’re able to do the things that are needed from them. But as as I think about soulful listening as a framework, it, it it seems, um, pretty superpower ish. I don’t I don’t want to say that. I don’t want to oversell it. Right.
Terri Lonowski : But yeah, I believe I believe it is a superpower of sorts. I don’t know if I would call that that, but you did. And so I’m going to.
Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah, I’m going.
Terri Lonowski : To latch.
Joshua Kornitsky: On to jump on. And the whole idea is just that I try to think about what it would be like. You know, we we all aspire ourselves to be a certain way. Um, this very much appeals to me to to be a soulful listener, to be someone who is so in that moment and so able to help others achieve the things they want to do. That’s that’s a lot of why I’m sitting on this side of the microphone. And it’s a lot of why I do what I do for a living, because I want to help others. What if somebody’s not wired that way?
Terri Lonowski : Well, we don’t need another person’s permission or another person’s skill set to be this. That’s a great operating in this higher way of being. And what I have observed is we tend to entrain to the others that were around. You know, we’ll kind of match. And so if we are operating at these soulful listening level.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right.
Terri Lonowski : You know, other people will kind of like lean into that because it works. It’s appealing.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s a really good point. So they see it. They see its effectiveness. And and that’s something I had not considered. But it makes sense to me. It there’s there’s some ancient lesson in US process. Uh, that’s that’s true. That basically process is born out of we do the things that produce the results that we want, and we don’t do the things we don’t repeat the things that did not get us our results. And ultimately, process is born out of that very crude concept. And it ties in here really in a way I hadn’t considered if I witnessed someone else using these components and this approach, and I see it being effective, I’m going to try it.
Terri Lonowski : Right, right. And and we’re kind of magnetically drawn to people who are Open who are in alignment within their own own being.
Joshua Kornitsky: Sure.
Terri Lonowski : You know, you describe the the leader that was, you know, like people were walking on eggshells around them. You know, that that, you know, like elicits people shutting down. But if you have this quiet confidence and it doesn’t mean that just being quiet is going to do it. You know, there has to be some meat behind it. So you have a leader that has a lot of substance to them. Maybe they’ve had some practices where they’ve been off putting to people that they’re trying to lead, like your drill sergeant. Right. You know, they had the best of intentions. But when we really look at human behavior and what we need as humans, and we are designed to thrive when we feel seen and heard and supported by others, period.
Joshua Kornitsky: I think that that’s a often overlooked, realistic perspective on, uh, managing human capital to to use that term, to the best of my way, to describe when you’re thinking about people that work with you, with people that work for you, that the leaders that are under your care or that you report to us, we all do better with the right mindset. We all improve if we’re being heard and believe that we’re being heard. And it doesn’t mean I have to win every argument for lack of a of a better expression. But to be heard is to be recognized.
Terri Lonowski : Yes. And when we when we are seen in this way, we feel more confident to bring forth bold ideas, you know, and that’s the space in which innovation can thrive.
Joshua Kornitsky: 100% that that aligns with exactly what what we teach. And in that you have to have vulnerability based trust before you can experience constructive conflict. And it’s only from constructive conflict that accountability and results will come and commitment will come, because you’ve got to believe the other person isn’t trying to hurt you. That we’re working towards common goals and clearly this would help people work towards a common goal. So. So let me ask, do you teach this to organizations? Do you teach this to people? How how are you bringing, uh, outside of your Ted talk? How are you bringing soulful listening out to the world?
Terri Lonowski : Right. You know, I can work with companies. And, you know, I had one that a CEO reached out to me. Within a year, they had grown from 100 employees to 250.
Joshua Kornitsky: Wow. That’s pretty significant.
Terri Lonowski : And so they were having, you know, miscommunication, misunderstandings, breakdown, hard feelings, people missing deadlines, so on and so forth. So in that case, I went in and I wanted to spend a little bit of time with the people and I wanted to listen. And so I asked to speak to people from all the different levels. Right. And I got some insights into how they how each of these levels was experiencing all of this change. And so then I had a half a day when I was with the executives. So we did like a deep dive into this. We’ve kind of skimmed over some of the elements today, but we dug deeper and I was able to offer some real life examples from within their house.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Terri Lonowski : And then a couple days later, I did a keynote for all 250. So they had a similar framework from which they could support each other in moving forward.
Joshua Kornitsky: And I think that that’s a really important thing to consider. Right. Is that while that’s great, if you’re able to work with one team, the biggest impact is if the organization has a common language and has an ability to understand why we’re saying the words we’re saying, why we’re taking the actions we’re taking. Um, are there particular size organizations that you work with or up and down?
Terri Lonowski : I’m kind of open to that. I would want to have a conversation to so I could sense whether I would be able to offer great value. That’s the most important thing to me. Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: This is a question that that jumps out and it’s a little it’s a little off center, but I feel like it’s something that that you have expertise to speak to. Terri. Um, what are the misconceptions? What are the assumptions people make about communication and whether it ties to soulful listening or not? Your communications expert, what are the what are the most common mistakes you see that you’re able to help with?
Terri Lonowski : Well, it’s kind of, uh, you know, I don’t know, kind of disregarded as being important. You know, maybe looking at communication as a hug, a tree. Really not that big of a deal. Soft skills, when in fact, that is not true. Miscommunication in the United States costs businesses $1.2 trillion a year.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay, that’s enough messing around number.
Terri Lonowski : Okay.
Joshua Kornitsky: And that that is directly attributable. I’m asking to.
Terri Lonowski : Yes.
Joshua Kornitsky: To miscommunication.
Terri Lonowski : And you know, in that in that bucket would be things like people not engaged at work.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right.
Terri Lonowski : Quietly quitting actually quitting. Right. You know turnover and and so it’s all of that together, um, not communicating effectively with your clients and missing an order, uh, being off putting to them because you have what you want to say, but you’ve not listened to what they need. Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and I have to believe that assumptions play into it, right? Because to me, that’s the the greatest pitfall that I typically observe with, with organizations that I work with and even organizations that I don’t work with, is is that assumption that A is handling B, which will make C not happen except A and B have no idea that C occurs?
Terri Lonowski : Yeah, I can see.
Joshua Kornitsky: And that gets awful expensive. And then you know anytime you put yourself into that mindset what’s it going to cost us to fix. What’s it going to cost us to to remediate or to go back? Um, you know, of that 1.3 trillion.
Terri Lonowski : 1.2.
Joshua Kornitsky: $1.2 trillion? It’s as the expression goes, it’s hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube. I wonder how much of that is. I wonder how much of that is lost confidence equating to loss of business. Right. Because if if that communication breaks down and I lose confidence in your ability to deliver my widgets, I’m going to go somewhere else. And that’s that’s harder to measure because who knows how much revenue was there. But we’ve all we’ve all seen it. And most of us that have been in business have made that decision. I wasn’t getting what I needed here. I’m going to go elsewhere.
Terri Lonowski : Right. And when you look at what that does to an employee, you know, if let’s say it’s a high functioning, high performing employee and the widget doesn’t get delivered and that looks bad on them and they’re going to go, I’m, you know, good luck. I’m not I’m going to go find another place where that widget can get there on time.
Joshua Kornitsky: Right. So it’s it’s it sounds like it can be a multifaceted or it can be a cascading fallout when you have a communication breakdown.
Terri Lonowski : Totally.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay, so tell me, based on your experience, um, some without giving away, uh, identifying information. Right. What are some of the the changes you’ve been able to see happen in some of the companies or organizations you’ve worked with?
Terri Lonowski : Well, you know, the one that I just gave an example of, the CEO ended up writing this letter. And what happened there is they they found a way of communicating with one another, taking the breath, listening, offering good questions so they could really get at the problems. And, and they just had a healthier, um, feeling seen and feeling heard. And that mattered a lot to the employees at all levels. And when we look at the, um, the admin level at this organization, right, you know, they were just like, you know, all this change has happened. Nobody’s connecting with us. They’re just, you know, like throwing it upon us and didn’t even ask us, how could we do this a little bit better? And so after that, they got brought in the loop of the conversation.
Joshua Kornitsky: And that’s a great point because you can’t you’re not I, I presume you’re not going to be as effective at implementation if you limit it to only a portion of the organization.
Terri Lonowski : Right. It’s it’s better. I mean, you know, a leader can really have an incredible ripple effect, too. So if, you know, if we just get to the, you know, the higher level, right, that can, you know, like I say, the entrainment, the matching, the demonstrating and being the leader of this.
Joshua Kornitsky: So Sam, a leader of an organization and I’m listening to this right now. What are some key indicators to me that I’ve got communication issues. What are things that I should be looking for to tell me? Because, you know, we’re making money. Uh, we’re we’re we’re growing, whether it’s at full potential or capacity. You know, a, uh, leader may cage that answer and say, well, we can’t say for sure. But how how would a leader what are some of the signs that a leader should look for.
Terri Lonowski : One thing you can look at is what? Your turnover rate.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.
Terri Lonowski : You know, if you have people running out the door and they’re the high quality people, that’s a really good indication that something’s amiss.
Joshua Kornitsky: Okay, that makes perfect sense to me.
Terri Lonowski : Another thing, if you haven’t had an innovative idea brought before you recently, you might want to take stock of that.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s that’s a really interesting tell. Um, because that goes back to trust, that goes back to openness and the willingness to take that chance to say, hey, boss, what if we did this?
Terri Lonowski : Right. And the container that soulful listening can create is a safe container in which you can innovate because innovation is messy, right? You know, the ideas are not perfect upon first being formed. Sure. And so you have to have be able to bounce that around and have, you know, the the freedom to fail fast. You know, reiterate and then really get to something that may have saved you countless dollars.
Joshua Kornitsky: And I can see why enhancing your ability to communicate would dramatically change that pattern. Because one of the things that that I always work with my clients on is accepting that, you know, we can’t we’re not likely to solve every problem 100% the first time we try. The companies that get that and can iterate succeed ultimately much quicker because they understand, okay, this path A didn’t work. Let’s try path B, let’s try path C, but occasionally I encounter organizations where you know they’re going to ride path A down to hell and, and and even then you will have somebody demanding that this is the only way. And it’s because they don’t have that ability to communicate openly and say, hey, we tried that. That didn’t work. Next up.
Terri Lonowski : Yeah. And even if that did work at one time, very, very, very well. The world is different. It’s changing every single day. We can even look at technology, and we don’t even need to have a deep understanding of that. But to know that there are tools that maybe take the place of a task that was, was done by 12 people. Now two can do it. And so where can that capital be utilized in a better way? Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: So I want to ask a harder question that just occurred to me with what you said.
Terri Lonowski : Okay.
Joshua Kornitsky: Because you are an expert in communication with, let’s say, the influx of AI and all of the whatever version you want to call it, whatever tool, whatever name you want to use, is that introducing an element of of either chaos or anxiety into the communication Channels.
Terri Lonowski : You know, I think.
Joshua Kornitsky: In your opinion.
Terri Lonowski : Yeah. You know, it depends on the setting. In some ways it could be like an incredible aid, you know, like a augment, you know, to augment what’s being done. And, you know, sometimes we’re afraid of what we don’t know. And so maybe giving stock to and asking, asking your people like, how are you? How does this set with you? We’re bringing this on. How does this set with you?
Joshua Kornitsky: And maybe there you go communicating again.
Terri Lonowski : Yeah.
Joshua Kornitsky: But but you actually gave me an answer that I never would have thought of because, uh, most people don’t do that. They’re just like, here’s the new tool.
Terri Lonowski : Right? And and that ultimately may be what needs to happen. That tool may need to be there. But by just tapping the brakes for just a second and checking in, then you can create an environment where there could be bigger buy in, and maybe that person will come to you and say, you know, I see that we’re going to use it for this, but what about if we also used it for this?
Joshua Kornitsky: Right. Yeah. And that only comes from the ability to communicate clearly.
Terri Lonowski : Right. Right.
Joshua Kornitsky: Terri, I can’t thank you enough. So would you mind taking us through the five steps briefly, just so that anybody can write them down? Uh, and obviously we’re going to link to your website. We’re going to link to, to whatever the ways are to communicate best with you. But if you’ll run them, run through them one more time so that everybody can have them.
Terri Lonowski : Of course. Happy to. So the first element. Self-care. Take stock of that and maybe even commit to yourself this next week doing two self-care activities and then seeing how you feel about that in the week. The second one is becoming fully present before your next conversation. Somebody you care about. Take three deep breaths and listen.
Joshua Kornitsky: I love how you slow down when you say that, but you force people to listen.
Terri Lonowski : And the third one, quantum listening. Like, tune in, put everything else aside. Listen with all that you are.
Joshua Kornitsky: And you said that it’s okay. That. That takes time.
Terri Lonowski : It’s okay. Start now. Start small.
Joshua Kornitsky: I just wanted to reiterate, because a lot of people are going to be frustrated that I don’t know how to do that. Well, you gotta take the first step.
Terri Lonowski : Step. One little baby step. And then the fourth element inspired action. When you get a nudge that somebody could use your help or use a connection that you have. Offer it no strings attached. And then the fifth element circle back and let them know what you’ve done.
Joshua Kornitsky: I can’t thank you enough, Terri. What’s the best way for people to get Ahold of you?
Terri Lonowski : Well, I do have a website. Soulful listening comm. One word. Soulful listening.
Joshua Kornitsky: We’ll post that link.
Terri Lonowski : And then I’d love to connect with people on LinkedIn.
Joshua Kornitsky: Oh.
Terri Lonowski : So that would be by my name, Teri. And I’m the only one.
Joshua Kornitsky: Speaking is Joshua Kornitsky. I’m with.
Terri Lonowski : You, so connect with me there. And that is the place that you’ll see what I’m up to. I’m on an awful lot of podcasts and different media, you know, social media platforms. So check me out there too.
Joshua Kornitsky: That’s fantastic. Well, um, I can’t thank you enough, Terri. I certainly learned a lot and will be doing my best to to adopt this. I know that you have other things in the works, and when those come forward, I absolutely would love to have you back on the show to talk about them. Um, my guest today has been Terri Landowski. I can’t emphasize enough also a speaker, keynote speaker, and a coach, but she’s the creator of the soulful listening methodology that we’ve just learned together. Uh, the five steps that will help us become really much more effective listeners and in indirectly incredible communicators. And I say indirectly because it’s about listening first. Is that fair or am I fair? All right.
Terri Lonowski : That is fair.
Joshua Kornitsky: Terri’s work focuses on helping leaders and organizations strengthen communication. You guys just heard that build trust and improve workplace relationships. It’s a sound, a science grounded and human centered approach, um, to both leadership and connection, blending neuroscience with practical application. Terri, again, thank you for being here. My name is Joshua Kornitsky. I am a professional EOS implementer and the host here on High Velocity Radio. Thank you for joining us. We’ll see you next time.