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Richard Grove, Wall Control

January 18, 2022 by John Ray

Richard Grove
North Fulton Business Radio
Richard Grove, Wall Control
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Richard GroveRichard Grove, Wall Control (North Fulton Business Radio, Episode 426)

A third-generation family member in senior management at Wall Control, Richard joined host John Ray to share how Wall Control grew and evolved from a small tool & die shop to a manufacturer of the best wall-mounted storage system available. Richard also announced a new Business RadioX-produced show, Organization Conversation, which will feature Wall Control customers, strategic partners, professional organizers, and other authorities in the world of organizing. North Fulton Business Radio is broadcast from the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® inside Renasant Bank in Alpharetta.

Wall Control

Wall Control is committed to being the industry leader in pegboard style storage & organization. Simply put, no other tool storage system can match the quality, versatility, and value of the award-winning Wall Control System.

Our commitment to quality is not only reflected in our product but is also evident in our practices. We strive to do right by our customers every day, starting at product design conception and continuing through with superb product and customer support.

Being committed to quality means keeping a close eye on product production to be sure that the Wall Control values are stamped into every panel and accessory that is produced. We achieve this by manufacturing our entire product line here, in the USA.

The Wall Control story begins in 1968 in a small tool & die shop just outside Atlanta, Georgia. The first of three generations began their work in building a family-based US manufacturer with little more than hard work and the American Dream.

Over the past 50+ years, this family business has continued to grow and expand from what was once a small tool & die shop into an award-winning US manufacturer of products ranging from automobile components to satellite panels and now, the best wall-mounted tool storage system available today, Wall Control.

The Wall Control brand launched in 2003, and is a family-owned and operated business that not only produces a high-quality American Made product but sees the entire design, production, and distribution process happen under our own roof in Tucker, Georgia. Under that same roof, you’ll still find 3 generations of American Manufacturing hard at work to bring you the best tool storage products available today.

Our Product

The award-winning and affordable Wall Control pegboard storage system solves six main wall-mounted storage challenges better than any other system available today: Durability, Strength, Versatility, Ease of Installation, Attractive Appearance, and Value.

Clean And Efficient Pegboard Tool Storage

Durability – Our strong metal pegboard prevents the peg holes from fraying and wearing out over time. Traditional pegboard panels start out ugly, wear out quickly, and eventually, the pegboard hooks no longer stay engaged in their peg hole and will fall out when the tool is removed. Our panel face, manufactured in the US from 20 gauge steel, ensures that Wall Control’s system will last a lifetime; many times longer than traditional pegboard products.

Strength – Traditional pegboard is weak by nature due to the material it is made from. The strength of steel, combined with a formed flange around the perimeter, and our One-Piece Installation pegboard make our metal pegboard panels over 10 times stronger than conventional pegboard and more secure than any other metal pegboard system. More strength equals more storage. Wall Control Pegboard also mounts directly to the wall requiring no cleat or rail system to be installed first. This “Direct to Wall” pegboard mounting system is inherently more secure than other mounting systems because the panel is not “hanging” off of any rail or cleat and the Flush-With-Wall return flanges on Wall Control Pegboards allow the installation screw head to snug up tight with solid panel-to-wall contact removing all torque from the installation screw, ensuring a secure installation for heavy lifting.

Versatile and Easy To Install Pegboard Design

Versatility – Our unique “Combo” style panels allow the user the option of utilizing 1/4 in traditional pegboard hooks as well as our own patented, much more secure, “double offset” hook and slot design. Wall Control’s metal panels are also magnetic so you can attach all your magnetic accessories, a truly encompassing omni tool wall storage organization system. Engineered for both secure engagement and ease of movement, Wall Control’s Hooks, Brackets, Shelves, and Accessories will install easily and stay put. The versatility of these storage panels is also highlighted by the all-steel shelving system that Wall Control panels support. Finally, a pegboard system that has the ability to support substantial weight on a matching, integrated shelving system.

Ease of installation – Wall Control installs in minutes. Wall Control panels offer a simple One-Piece Installation, simply mount the panels directly to the wall and you’re done. Ease of installation was a key criterion during the design phase of this pegboard system. Manufactured with a built-in flange on all four sides, the Wall Control storage panel requires no pre-built framework and mounts directly to any flat surface. The flange spaces the panel’s perforated face away from the wall so that the hooks, brackets, and shelves will engage with no wasted area. The convenient 16″x32″ standard size and modular design make it easy to handle and a snap to install. If you have traditional 16″ stud spacing, you can hit studs all the way down your wall with Wall Control’s brilliant mounting hole instructions. If not, have no worries, we include drywall anchors as well, so hitting studs is not required, although obviously preferred, if possible.

Attractive Appearance – Available in eight durable, scratch-resistant, powder-coated colors as well as a very reflective and attractive metallic galvanized finish, Wall Control Storage Systems truly are suitable for use in any location wall-mounted storage is desired in the home, office, or workplace. These high-quality finishes resist rust and stains and even wipe clean with a damp rag. When you combine sleek design with a high-quality finish, you can’t go wrong.

Affordability & Value – Simply put, no other system on the market offers the affordability and value of a Wall Control Pegboard Storage System.

For years Wall Control storage systems have been and continue to be the industry leader when it comes to pegboard tool storage and organization, and for good reason, but don’t take our word for it. We encourage you to check out our online product reviews from reputable places like Amazon and Home Depot to see for yourself that our products truly are in a league of their own when it comes to quality, versatility, value, customer service, and ultimately, customer satisfaction.

Company Website | Facebook | LinkedIn

Richard Grove, COO, Wall Control

Richard Grove
Richard Grove, COO, Wall Control

Richard Grove is the COO of Wall Control, a family-owned and operated brand of Wall Storage and Organization Systems ranging from Garage Tool Storage to Kitchen Wall Organizers and even Industrial Tool Organizational Systems for industry-leading Fortune 100 companies across the globe.

Richard’s background is in engineering but what he enjoys most is brand building through relationships and creative marketing. Richard began his career with the Department of Defense as an engineer on the C-5 Galaxy Engineering Team based out of Warner Robins. While Richard found this experience both rewarding and fulfilling, he always knew deep down that he wanted to return to the small family business that originally triggered his interest in engineering.

Richard came to work for the family business, Dekalb Tool & Die, in 2008 as a Mechanical Engineer. At the time Wall Control was little more than a small ‘side hustle’ for Dekalb Tool & Die to try to produce some incremental income. There were no “Wall Control” employees, just a small warehouse with a single tool and die maker that would double as an “order fulfillment associate” on the occasion that the original WallControl.com website, which Richard’s grandmother built, pulled in an order.

Shortly after Richard arrived in 2008 the economy took a turn for the worse. Much of the work Dekalb Tool & Die was holding on to was leaving the shop to go to Mexico, China, or some other offshore source. Seemingly overnight it became apparent that in order for the family business to survive they were going to have to produce their own branded product at scale to ensure jobs remained in-house and for the business to continue to move forward. Richard then turned his attention from tool and die to Wall Control to attempt this necessary pivot and his story with Wall Control began. Since that time, Richard has led Wall Control to significant growth while navigating two recessions.

Today Wall Control is responsible for the employment of 50+ employees and occupies a 60,000+ square foot physical footprint of its own while still growing rapidly. Wall Control is also proud to say that they are now Dekalb Tool & Die’s biggest customer by volume sold through their shop.

Outside of Richard’s work at Wall Control he enjoys helping other business owners, operators, and entrepreneurs along their own paths to success by offering personal business coaching and advising through his website ConsultantSmallBusiness.com. Richard has developed an expansive and unique skillset growing and scaling Wall Control through a multitude of challenges to the successful brand and company it is today. Richard is happy to share his knowledge and experience with others who are looking to do the same within their own businesses.

Connect with Richard:

Instagram | Twitter | LinkedIn | Richard’s Website

Questions and Topics Discussed in this Episode

  • Tell us about Wall Control and how it began
  • Who uses your products?
  • Is this a custom system?
  • What is Organization Conversation?
  • Tell us about Workbench Con

 

North Fulton Business Radio is hosted by John Ray, and broadcast and produced from the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® inside Renasant Bank in Alpharetta. You can find the full archive of shows by following this link. The show is available on all the major podcast apps, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, Amazon, iHeart Radio, Stitcher, TuneIn, and others.

RenasantBank

 

Renasant Bank has humble roots, starting in 1904 as a $100,000 bank in a Lee County, Mississippi, bakery. Since then, Renasant has grown to become one of the Southeast’s strongest financial institutions with over $13 billion in assets and more than 190 banking, lending, wealth management and financial services offices in Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia and Florida. All of Renasant’s success stems from each of their banker’s commitment to investing in their communities as a way of better understanding the people they serve. At Renasant Bank, they understand you because they work and live alongside you every day.

 

Special thanks to A&S Culinary Concepts for their support of this edition of North Fulton Business Radio. A&S Culinary Concepts, based in Johns Creek, is an award-winning culinary studio, celebrated for corporate catering, corporate team building, Big Green Egg Boot Camps, and private group events. They also provide oven-ready, cooked from scratch meals to go they call “Let Us Cook for You.” To see their menus and events, go to their website or call 678-336-9196.

 

Tagged With: John Ray, North Fulton Business Radio, Organization Conversation, Richard Grove, storage systems, Tool organization, tool storage systems, Wall Control

Alina Lee, Your Ad Attorney, Chasidy Ashley, TBK Wellness Spa, and Angie Williams, BeLocal Alpharetta Milton

January 17, 2022 by John Ray

TBK Wellness Spa
Family Business Radio
Alina Lee, Your Ad Attorney, Chasidy Ashley, TBK Wellness Spa, and Angie Williams, BeLocal Alpharetta Milton
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Alina Lee, Your Ad Attorney, Chasidy Ashley, TBK Wellness Spa, and Angie Williams, BeLocal Alpharetta Milton (Family Business Radio, Episode 28)

On this edition of Family Business Radio, host Anthony Chen welcomed three accomplished women entrepreneurs. Alina Lee discussed her passion for working with small business owners to meet growth objectives and avoid legal pitfalls. Chasidy Ashley discussed how she designed TBK Wellness Spa to offer better amenities and service than found in competing chain operations. Finally, Angie Williams discussed her hyper-local magazine and why its popularity is so advantageous for advertisers. Anthony closed the show by offering thoughts on financial planning, living dreams, and a reminder that “you can’t take the portfolio with you.”   Family Business Radio is underwritten and brought to you by Anthony Chen with Lighthouse Financial Network.

Alina Lee, Founding Partner, Your Ad Attorney, LLC

Alina Lee, Founding Partner, Your Ad Attorney, LLC

Proactive compliance with consumer and business laws is the best protection from marketing risks and liabilities.

You’ll find Your Ad Attorney’s approach to marketing legal services avoids typical legal hurdles and makes better business sense for every size business.

Alina Lee is the founding partner of Your Ad Attorney, LLC.  She is a marketing law and business transactions attorney who helps marketing agencies and companies with marketing departments protect their reputation through providing legal drafting and review for their marketing materials.

Prior to starting her law firm, Your Ad Attorney, LLC, she was Senior Corporate Counsel at Mailchimp, a profitable tech company with millions of customers worldwide. At Mailchimp, she was the primary attorney who led legal matters for the partnerships department and marketing department. Alina was also the primary attorney over all major marketing initiatives and managed the company’s trademark portfolio.
Alina graduated from Vanderbilt University Law School and the University of Georgia.
Company website | LinkedIn

Chasidy Ashley, Owner, TBK Wellness Spa

TBK Wellness Spa
Chasidy Ashley, Owner, TBK Wellness Spa

TBK Wellness Spa was created to benefit anyone who needs having a therapeutic and nurturing environment. The owner was very intentional in providing something for everyone. From the far infrared sauna to the treatment rooms, this place is a one-stop-shop for wellness.

They have a team that is knowledgeable and committed to giving you the best experience while in their care. Massages, facials, pedicures, and body scrub treatments are only a few of the amenities that they have to offer.

They also have a gym that comes with a personal trainer. He teaches self-defense while focusing on your endurance and flexibility. They have a balance of hard work in the gym and then getting pampered on the spa side.

TBK Wellness Spa was surely created to give you the best of both worlds.

Company website | Facebook | Instagram

Angie Williams, Owner/Publisher, BeLocal Alpharetta Milton

Angie Williams, Owner/Publisher, BeLocal Alpharetta Milton

BeLocal Alpharetta Milton is a franchise of The N2 Company in Wilmington, NC.

BeLocal is the comprehensive guide for all new movers to the greater community. The first BeLocal magazine hit new movers’ mailboxes back in 2018. Since then, BeLocal expanded to serve residents in more than 100 communities across the country.

N2 began in 2004 and is over $150 million company.  Angie tells us that N2 is for niche marketing and that their products are targeted to Affluent Communities, New Movers, Medical Professionals, and Realtors.

Company website | LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram

Anthony Chen, Host of Family Business Radio

Anthony Chen, Lighthouse Financial, and Host of “Family Business Radio”

This show is sponsored and brought to you by Anthony Chen with Lighthouse Financial Network. Securities and advisory services offered through Royal Alliance Associates, Inc. (RAA), member FINRA/SIPC. RAA is separately owned and other entities and/or marketing names, products or services referenced here are independent of RAA. The main office address is 575 Broadhollow Rd. Melville, NY 11747. You can reach Anthony at 631-465-9090 ext 5075 or by email at anthonychen@lfnllc.com.

Anthony Chen started his career in financial services with MetLife in Buffalo, NY in 2008. Born and raised in Elmhurst, Queens, he considers himself a full-blooded New Yorker while now enjoying his Atlanta, GA home. Specializing in family businesses and their owners, Anthony works to protect what is most important to them. From preserving to creating wealth, Anthony partners with CPAs and attorneys to help address all of the concerns and help clients achieve their goals. By using a combination of financial products ranging from life, disability, and long term care insurance to many investment options through Royal Alliance. Anthony looks to be the eyes and ears for his client’s financial foundation. In his spare time, Anthony is an avid long-distance runner.

The complete show archive of “Family Business Radio” can be found at familybusinessradioshow.com.

Tagged With: Alina Lee, Alpharetta, Angie Williams, Anthony Chen, BeLocal Alpharetta Milton, Chasidy Ashley, Family Business Radio, Lighthouse Financial Network, Milton, TBK Wellness, Your Ad Attorney

Decision Vision Episode 151: Should I Rebrand My Company? – An Interview with Stephanie Stuckey, Stuckey’s Corporation

January 13, 2022 by John Ray

Stuckey's
Decision Vision
Decision Vision Episode 151: Should I Rebrand My Company? - An Interview with Stephanie Stuckey, Stuckey's Corporation
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Stuckey's

Decision Vision Episode 151:  Should I Rebrand My Company? – An Interview with Stephanie Stuckey, Stuckey’s Corporation

When Stephanie Stuckey bought Stuckey’s Corporation in 2019, she knew it was a struggling brand, but she was determined to reclaim the business with the trademark family name. She got to work rebuilding the company, drawing on all her legal, political and leadership experience. In this conversation with host Mike Blake, Stephanie shares the challenges of rebranding her company, updating its focus while maintaining the founder’s vision, why she calls Stuckey’s a startup, and much more. Decision Vision is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Stuckey’s Corporation

W.S. “Sylvester” Stuckey, Sr. founded Stuckey’s as a roadside pecan stand along Highway 23 in Eastman, GA in 1937. With a truck and the loan (from his grandmother), W.S. drove around the countryside and bought pecans from local farmers to sell at his stand, along with local honey and souvenirs. His wife, Ethel, added her delicious homemade candies – southern delicacies like pralines, Divinities, and our iconic Pecan Log Rolls.

Through grit and determination, the Stuckeys grew the stores from these humble beginnings to a roadside empire. At its peak in the 1960s, the little pecan company had become an integral part of the American road trip. It boasted 368 stores in over 30 states, each offering kitschy souvenirs, clean restrooms, Texaco gas, and of course, our famous candies.

The company was sold in 1964 but is now back in family hands and poised for a comeback.

Billy Stuckey, son of the founder and former U.S. Congressman, reacquired Stuckey’s in 1985. Stephanie took over in November of 2019 and, under her leadership, Stuckey’s has purchased a healthy pecan snack company, undergone a rebranding, added three new franchised stores, expanded its B2B retail customer base, ramped up its online sales with a new website and will soon acquire a pecan processing and candy manufacturing plant.

Company website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Stephanie Stuckey, CEO, Stuckey’s Corporation

Stuckey's
Stephanie Stuckey, CEO, Stuckey’s Corporation

Stephanie Stuckey is CEO of Stuckey’s, the roadside oasis famous for its pecan log rolls.  Stephanie aims to continue the legacy started by her grandparents by providing a fun and quality experience for the roadside traveler through our brick-and-mortar locations, as well as expanding markets for Stuckey’s pecan products via e-commerce and other outlets.

Stephanie received both her undergraduate and law degrees from the University of Georgia. She has worked as a trial lawyer, elected to seven terms as a state representative, run an environmental nonprofit law firm that settled the largest Clean Water Act case in Georgia history, served as Director of Sustainability and Resilience for the City of Atlanta, and taught as an Adjunct Professor at the University of Georgia School of Law.

Stephanie’s achievements include being named one of the 100 Most Influential Georgians by Georgia Trend Magazine and a graduate of Leadership Atlanta. She is active in her community and serves on many nonprofit boards, including the National Sierra Club Foundation, EarthShare of Georgia, and her local zoning review board.

LinkedIn

Mike Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Mike Blake, Host of the “Decision Vision” podcast series

Michael Blake is the host of the Decision Vision podcast series and a Director of Brady Ware & Company. Mike specializes in the valuation of intellectual property-driven firms, such as software firms, aerospace firms, and professional services firms, most frequently in the capacity as a transaction advisor, helping clients obtain great outcomes from complex transaction opportunities. He is also a specialist in the appraisal of intellectual properties as stand-alone assets, such as software, trade secrets, and patents.

Mike has been a full-time business appraiser for 13 years with public accounting firms, boutique business appraisal firms, and an owner of his own firm. Prior to that, he spent 8 years in venture capital and investment banking, including transactions in the U.S., Israel, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.

LinkedIn | Facebook | Twitter | Instagram

Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm which helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality. Brady Ware services clients nationally from its offices in Alpharetta, GA; Columbus and Dayton, OH; and Richmond, IN. The firm is growth-minded, committed to the regions in which they operate, and most importantly, they make significant investments in their people and service offerings to meet the changing financial needs of those they are privileged to serve. The firm is dedicated to providing results that make a difference for its clients.

Decision Vision Podcast Series

Decision Vision is a podcast covering topics and issues facing small business owners and connecting them with solutions from leading experts. This series is presented by Brady Ware & Company. If you are a decision-maker for a small business, we’d love to hear from you. Contact us at decisionvision@bradyware.com and make sure to listen to every Thursday to the Decision Vision podcast.

Past episodes of Decision Vision can be found at decisionvisionpodcast.com. Decision Vision is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

Connect with Brady Ware & Company:

Website | LinkedIn | Facebook | Twitter | Instagram

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: [00:00:02] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions. Brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional, full-service, accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:22] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners’ or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:43] My name is Mike Blake, and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia. My practice specializes in providing fact-based strategic and risk management advice to clients that are buying, selling or growing the value of companies and intellectual property. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast, which is being recorded in Atlanta per social distancing protocols. If you’d like to engage with me on social media, with my chart of the day and other content, I’m on LinkedIn as myself and @unblakeable on Facebook, Twitter, Clubhouse and Instagram. I also recently launched a new LinkedIn group called A Group That Doesn’t Suck, so please join that as well if you’d like to engage. If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator, and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:41] So, the topic today is “Should I Rebrand My Company?” And I think this is probably on people’s consciousness because we’ve had one of the biggest rebranding, certainly in my memory, which is the company formerly known as Facebook now would like to be known as Meta. I think that’s going to be a tough rebrand until they actually change their platform to something other than Facebook, but they didn’t ask me for advice. And what do I know, I’m just a finance guy anyway.

Mike Blake: [00:02:13] But branding is extremely important. And according to Forbes, presenting a brand consistently across all platforms can increase company revenue by 23 percent. And there’s a HubSpot statistic out there that suggests that 86 percent of consumers prefer an authentic and honest brand personality of social networks. And our guest today, I think, does that frankly exceptionally. And according to Facebook, the aforementioned now Meta, the top four qualities people use to describe why they are loyal to a brand are cost, quality, experience, and consistency.

Mike Blake: [00:02:52] And joining us today, and I’m very grateful because I have some idea of how busy she is because I suspect we only see on social media the tip of the iceberg, but joining us today is Stephanie Stuckey, who is the third generation CEO of Stuckey’s Corporation. She started her career as a lawyer building her own practice before serving in the Georgia House of Representatives from 1999 through 2013. I did not know that. She and I served on a board together years and years ago, and I never knew that she was in the Georgia House of Representatives.

Mike Blake: [00:03:25] After that, Stephanie became the Executive Director of Green Law, an environmentally-focused law resource center. In 2015, she was appointed the City of Atlanta’s Director of Sustainability, and then to the position of Chief Resilience Officer, which is something near and dear to my heart. She’s a Georgia bulldog, having earned a degree in French, just like I did, as an undergraduate and then earning her law degree there as well, too. I’m deeply disappointed that Cincinnati did not beat Alabama, nothing against Alabama, but since we have an office in Dayton, it would have been really cool to have a Cincinnati UGA College Football Championship, but there you have it.

Mike Blake: [00:04:01] Stuckey’s was founded by W.S. “Sylvester” Stuckey Sr. As a pecan stand along Highway 1 in Eastman, Georgia in 1937. Through hard work and grit, Stuckey’s grew into a roadside empire that numbered over 300 stores in the 1970s with the familiar teal sloped roof and Refresh, Relax, Refuel billboards dotting the nation’s highways. The stores fell out of family hands for decades, but were reacquired by Billy Stuckey, son of the founder and former US Congressman in 1980 — I’m sorry, in 1985. Stephanie took over in November of 2019 after a career in public service that we already discussed. And under Stephanie’s leadership, Stuckey’s has undergone a rebranding, added three new franchise stores, expanded B2B retail customer base, and ramped up its online sales with a brand new website. Stephanie Stuckey, thank you for joining the program.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:04:54] Thank you. Wow, what an amazing intro! I didn’t know Facebook was switching to Meta.

Mike Blake: [00:05:01] Well, you’ve been busy doing other stuff.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:05:03] That’s crazy. They should consult us on that because I have an opinion.

Mike Blake: [00:05:09] Well, that’s good. We like people on the show who have opinions. Otherwise, it’s a very boring show. But yeah, they’ve decided to really jump into this thing that some people are calling the metaverse; others are calling Web 3.0. Not sure what that means, but yeah, they felt that a rebranding was appropriate. So, they are in the process of doing that. But I want to talk about your rebranding. I want to talk about your rebranding because you’re here and Mark Zuckerberg’s not.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:05:38] He is not.

Mike Blake: [00:05:38] You’re probably more interesting anyway, so-

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:05:39] He’s not consulting us. And also, let me just say go Dogs!

Mike Blake: [00:05:44] There. There you go.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:05:46] I’m kind of looking forward to us playing Bama.

Mike Blake: [00:05:52] Why is that? I mean, obviously, you’re playing for the national championship. But Alabama, they’ve done well against the Bulldogs.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:05:59] Exactly. It’s been this psychological block for us at this point. And I think you really have to conquer the 800-pound gorilla in the room if you’re going to move forward. I don’t think that Georgia will feel like a true national champs unless we get the Championship by beating Bama. I know you didn’t have me on the show to talk football, but take [crosstalk] away.

Mike Blake: [00:06:26] Well. look, you can’t avoid it in Georgia, especially this time of year.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:06:31] I am just obsessed right now, yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:06:31] And I think what — I’ll go ahead and continue that. We’ll go off script, tThat’s fine. I mean, it’s our show, it’s the internet. Like, what the heck? So-

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:06:38] Hey, we can brand football too. That’s a big brand.

Mike Blake: [00:06:42] It certainly is.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:06:44] Big brand. There’s lots of [crosstalk].

Mike Blake: [00:06:44] I grew up in Boston, so I’ve been a lifelong Red Sox fan. And if you follow baseball, if you followed it for any amount of time, they had something called the Curse of the Bambino, which stems from a Red Sox selling Babe Ruths to New York Yankees, and they had not won a World Series since. And they wound up winning the series by a historic comeback over the Yankees, which wasn’t even possible because of the way divisions were aligned for so long. But it was only after beating the Yankees that they then broke through and won the World Series. They’ve won three cents. And I think there’s something to what you said. I think the only way the Red Sox could really win the World Series was to drive a stake through the heart of the vampire New York Yankee.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:07:29] Exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:07:29] Any other way, just God wasn’t going to allow that to happen.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:07:33] And since we’re talking branding, there are so many great branding lessons to learn from sports. And especially that whole comeback idea, to me, the greatest story ever told was the comeback. And you see that quite often in sports, not only real life, but some of the best movies that we love like Rocky, they’re all about a comeback. And so, that translates into business as well. People love to root for the underdog. They want to see the underdog come out on top and win. I think coming into this national championship, Georgia is the underdog because we have consistently been wooped by Bama. So, I would like to think there’s a lot of people out there who haven’t been following either one of these teams, but they’re going to root for the Bulldogs because we’re the underdog. So, that translates to Stuckey’s. We’re an underdog.

Mike Blake: [00:08:28] I think that’s right. And there is a comeback story there, isn’t it?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:08:31] Absolutely. We are a comeback brand. I like to say that all the time, not only because it’s true, but psychologically, we want to see people come from all sorts of adversity and persevere, come out on top.

Mike Blake: [00:08:47] So, yeah. And frankly, I think that’s why I reached out to you, because I do follow you on social media. You do a fantastic job of transmitting your story on social media. Again, finance guy, what do I know?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:09:01] Thank you.

Mike Blake: [00:09:01] But I do think it’s helping your brand. I do think it’s bringing your brand into a sense of awareness to the younger generations.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:09:11] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:09:11] Right? Because they’re not watching billboards, and half of them don’t even drive anymore, right?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:09:14] I know, it’s crazy. So many don’t drive.

Mike Blake: [00:09:19] Yeah. Well, yeah. It’s the new world out there, right? So, I’ve been fascinated to kind of watch your brand. And interestingly, I follow. I think you know that my wife, who does e-commerce for a long time, she carried Stuckey’s for catalogs as a flagship brand in her e-commerce site and really only stopped because Amazon-

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:09:43] Yeah. Billy and I caught up on that.

Mike Blake: [00:09:43] Really only stopped because Amazon made the rules for selling food just so draconian that she couldn’t — as a small business person, that just wasn’t worth it anymore, unfortunately, but they’re a great seller for her. So, I’ve been following the brand actually from afar for quite some time and in a way, was sort of invested in it.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:10:01] Thank you.

Mike Blake: [00:10:01] Tell us at a high level — we’ll get into the details of the rebranding, but tell us at the high level kind of — you walked in at 2019, and I want to hear about the origin story, but before we even hear about how you got there, what did you walk into? November 2019, you walked into Stuckey’s, you take the CEO’s office or wherever you worked, what did you walk into?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:10:24] The office was a rundown, double wide trailer that we were renting.

Mike Blake: [00:10:29] Okay.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:10:29] I swear to God.

Mike Blake: [00:10:31] All right, keep going. So-.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:10:33] If I did not have the last name Stuckey, I not only would not have bought the company, I would have run screaming from the prospect of buying the company. So, I bought a struggling business. What I bought was a trademark, which I think was the most valuable thing I purchased and a rented warehouse in Eastman, Georgia, with a lot of dead inventory that hadn’t moved in years. And I knew nothing about business. I knew something about budgets having worked in government, which you may or may not think is valuable budgeting lessons, but-

Mike Blake: [00:11:17] I think it’s very valuable.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:11:19] … the one thing the Georgia Legislature constitutionally had to accomplish every single session was to pass a balanced budget. So, I did know about budgeting. I had a budget running a nonprofit and a law firm, and I had the budget running the Office of Sustainability for the City of Atlanta. So, I understood base level finances. So, I did have that understanding, but I had never run a warehouse or, now, we’re in the manufacturing world that was all new to me. But I did know innately that if you have inventory that’s sitting around for several years, that’s not good. You should be having a turn rate of a lot faster than that. So, I inherited a lot of dead inventory like Britney Spears t-shirts and ashtrays shaped like toilets and say, “Put your butts here.” We had some John Wayne bobbleheads. We just had all sorts of random shtick.

Mike Blake: [00:12:05] John Wayne bobbleheads?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:12:07] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:12:08] Wow!

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:12:09] Yeah, but random. Like they were miscounts and slotted wrong, and there were three out of a case of 10. So, no store is going to buy three random items.

Mike Blake: [00:12:23] Yeah.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:12:24] And it just — the company had, frankly, just gone somewhat on autopilot and had a very small skeleton crew. We had two main people running it and they are terrific. We’ve kept them on. They’re fabulous. This is no fault of theirs. But if you don’t have financing, if you don’t have a structural support, if you don’t have all the basics to run a successful company, it doesn’t matter how hardworking or smart you are, you can’t turn it around. And so, we had a company that had been on autopilot for about a decade.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:13:00] My dad and his business partners had sold off the most profitable part of their business. We don’t need to get into all that, but they owned a profitable business, Interstate Dairy Queen corporation. That had largely propped up Stuckey’s. And then, when they sold Interstate Dairy Queen Corporation, they retired, they left a skeleton crew in charge managing what was left of Stuckey’s. And what was left was a rented warehouse that is a distribution facility and the trademark. But none of the stores are owned or operated by us. They’re not even franchised at this point. They’re all licensed. So, very little revenue generated from the stores, very little control over the store. So, that revenue is slowly declining and we started losing some accounts.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:13:44] So, yeah, it was a double wide trailer, run down. And I remember, I visited the stores, and I sat in the parking lot of one store, and it looked so bad, it was completely rundown, I could not even bring myself to walk in, and I started to cry. Now, I do cry pretty easily. I cry with Hallmark commercials and-

Mike Blake: [00:14:08] Okay.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:14:09] … when I see college fund ads, I always cry, but I’m an easy crier. But I am in the parking lot crying, and I call my vice president, and I said, “This is just horrible.” He didn’t skip a beat, he said, “Welcome to your kingdom.”

Mike Blake: [00:14:25] Interesting. Interesting response.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:14:28] Welcome to your kingdom. Like this is your roadside mess. So, you have to have a sense of humor, you have to laugh, and you have to be able to see the potential. And I saw the potential because not only do I have the last name Stuckey, but I was around when the business was profitable, when my grandfather was still involved. He had sold the company the year before I was born, but he remained involved on the board of the company that acquired it for some years after he sold. So, I knew what it could be, I knew what it was capable of, and I believed in my heart that we could bring that back.

Mike Blake: [00:15:01] So, we didn’t come on to talk about this, but I’m so curious, I think it will come back to the topic, and that is, what do you remember that your grandfather did with the business that seemed to have stopped going on when he left? What was missing?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:15:20] So, I didn’t remember anything about him actually running the company directly. I just remember being around the company.

Mike Blake: [00:15:27] Yeah.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:15:28] Well, being around the stores, visiting the stores because we road trip just like everyone else. What was interesting to me was one of the most important things I acquired when I bought the company was not only the trademark but his papers. My mother gave me several boxes of his archives that no one had even touched since the 1960s. It was like opening a time capsule. So, I spent those first couple of months after acquiring the company reading through all his papers. Every single night, I would just sit down, and I just start reading, and I took notes. And he went from being my grandfather, who I call Big Daddy, he went from being Big Daddy, and I had these warm, fuzzy memories of of a granddaughter-grandfather relationship. He was not a businessman to me, but he became Stuckey. He became the businessman. I learned about how he ran the company, and that made all the difference.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:16:29] Honestly, so much of what I’m doing is following his basic business principles. And he didn’t get an MBA. He had to drop out of the University of Georgia because it was during the Great Depression, but he had a strong understanding of people. He was a gifted salesperson, just naturally gifted, and he really firmly believed in the power of branding. He put 20 percent of everything he made into branding and marketing, even during the tough times.

Mike Blake: [00:17:04] Interesting and-

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:17:05] Especially the tough times. I realized, that’s what you need to do. You have to brand. And I’ve learned that from him, but not until many, many years later, when I got his papers did I learn that.

Mike Blake: [00:17:17] So, you bought a virtual memoir, basically. Or you bought a virtual mentor, actually, is the best way to put it.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:17:23] Yeah. If I can only get some sort of psychic to channel him for me, that would be awesome. But unfortunately, I’ve got his papers, not him.

Mike Blake: [00:17:31] I have a feeling somebody’s going to listen to this podcast, they’re going to come to you and ask if they could publish them because if they’ve been that valuable to you, given the progress that you’ve made with the company, they’re going to be valuable to somebody else too.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:17:44] Yeah, it’s been fascinating. But the interesting thing, there’s not a lot of his personal correspondence, it’s mostly interviews and magazine articles, original articles. A lot of these are small town papers. They’re not really going to exist anywhere else. So, it’s a lot of hard copies of original firsthand accounts. And Mercer University Press actually did a self-publish. My aunt, to her credit, got a lot of first-person narratives recorded and publish this book called Stuckey. I think five people have read it and they’re all family members, but I read that book three times, and took notes in the margins and really studied that. It’s kind of dry and clunky as far as like reading, but just the material was so helpful to me. So, I felt like an archivist.

Mike Blake: [00:18:34] Well, that’s — I’ve got to be careful because I do so much work with multigenerational businesses, it’s such a treasure trove, but I want to get back on topic the. So, from what I’m from what I’m inferring, and you tell me if I’m wrong, please, because you’re the expert, I’m not, but it sounds like maybe when you walked in, Stuckey’s didn’t necessarily have a brand at all. Or did it? I mean, how would you characterize it?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:19:03] It did.

Mike Blake: [00:19:03] Okay. What was the brand?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:19:04] So, that’s the great thing. I firmly believe I started on first base or second base, how far along you want to say I am, to continue with this sports theme, but there are still a lot of people out there in 2019 when I bought the company and they’re, albeit older forties, fifties, sixties and up, who rode tripped in the ’50s, ’60s, ’70s, early ’80s, and remember stopping at Stuckey’s. They remember us when we had 368 teal stores with the slope roofs, and these exact carports, and the red and yellow beautiful, iconic billboards that dotted the nation’s highways. They remember that. They remember stopping at our stores and the wonderful memories.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:19:50] And I kid you not, I get easily ten or more messages a day from people sharing very personal stories about our business, about their road trips. When I say “about our business,” it’s not; it’s about them, it’s about their families, it’s about their road trips, and their vacations, and their memories and how we are entwined with that. So, I tapped into that, and I hunkered down on the people who knew us already. And I pulled on my experience in politics, which is you go to your base first. Don’t go chasing out after these — if you’re a Democrat, don’t go chasing after a bunch of Republican voters who are probably not going to support you. Those aren’t your people. And you go after your base, you shore up your base, and then you target those undecideds who could be persuadable.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:20:52] So, you figure out like, who are those people? So, for us, our peeps initially were the people who actually remembered the brand. So, that was 40 and up, and I was totally okay focusing on that. I wasn’t going to start chasing after millennials right out the bat because we needed to get the people who remembered us to know we were still alive. And then, you start looking beyond that, and you look at what are the things that really define us as a brand. And that’s road tripping. And to me, road tripping defies age categorization. It defies sex or ethnicity, anything, I mean, nationality, people all over the world like to road trip. And so, I’ve expanded to talking more about the road trip, but initially it was just drawing on, “Hey, remember us? We’re still around. Here’s our story. Let’s tell you what happened to us, but we’re still here. Where’ve you been? Come back.”

Mike Blake: [00:21:49] So, that’s a very interesting, I think, distinction because some brands rebrand to get away from something or to move to something new, right? The aforementioned Facebook is trying to get away from the bad reputation they’ve accumulated over the last couple of years because of social media basically. And so, they need a reboot. In your case, you’re going the other way. You’re doubling down on what you already had.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:22:19] Yes, exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:22:20] Almost going retro. But I think that’s maybe unfair and that sounds old fashioned, but you’re definitely doubling down on the base, as you said.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:22:28] Exactly. And I think where you modernize, or at least for our brand, is how you communicate. What are the mediums that you use? So, we started with Facebook because that’s where the older demographic is. And then, we added Linkedin. It has been incredible for us, especially if you’re looking in the B2B space, which is how we’re growing the brand with more retail partners. So, I started with the obvious, the traditional social media forums and Twitter. Twitter’s a little harder. It’s kind of sarcastic and has an attitude, a lot of the brands that do well on Twitter. So, Twitter has not been as strong a platform for us. And Pinterest, but we’re on Instagram. And now, we’re on Tik Tok. And I’m trying to get more on YouTube and Clubhouse. You mentioned Clubhouse. I need to get more into Clubhouse, but I am on Clubhouse. So, it’s not so much the message to me that’s modernizing. It’s how we approach people, how we meet people, how we communicate in a language that they can connect with us, but the core authentic what our brand is, which is about the road trip, that’s not changed.

Mike Blake: [00:23:54] And it’s interesting, you mentioned sort of the teal roof, and that kind of reminds me of Howard Johnson’s. And I wonder if this was deliberate, right? Howard Johnson’s always had that hunter orange roof that you could see from a mile and a half away driving 70 miles an hour, right? And I wonder if-

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:24:12] What a simple sign in [crosstalk]-

Mike Blake: [00:24:15] Yeah.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:24:17] When?

Mike Blake: [00:24:17] Yeah, and it was that part-

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:24:17] [Crosstalk].

Mike Blake: [00:24:17] Was that the thinking behind the teal roof for Stuckey’s as well?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:24:24] So, I don’t know if my grandfather was inspired by Howard Johnson’s or not. I do know the genesis of the teal roof was when the interstate highway system came in; and suddenly, the roads that we had been located on, we were on Route 66, and the Lincoln Highway, and the Old Dixie Highway, and some of these older interstate roads, and then the National Interstate Highway System, Eisenhower starts that initiative in 1956. And so, we’re bypassing these state roads and these other roads that we are on, and we had to make a very strategic decision to survive. I say we like I was around then.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:25:04] But to survive, my grandfather had to make a move, and he had to literally not only move how his strategy was, but he had to move his stores. And so, he used that as an opportunity to brand. And before, his stores had been sort of a mishmash of architectural styles, and there was no consistency in the color. He did have a consistent logo, but he used the move as an opportunity to get a consistent color, to get a consistent store design, to get consistent motifs.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:25:41] So, my father for some reason came up with a carriage design. I’ve told him I’ve never been a fan of the carriage design because it does not speak to our brand. To me, it’s kind of like this old South notation. So, that, I did dismiss with, and I called my dad and I said, “No disrespect, but I’m doing away with carriage.” And we put a we put a cool little — I call it the happy car family image, which is an original advertising image of Stuckey’s from the ’60s. So, it was a retro image, but it was more aligned with our brand. But he had all these distinctive elements, and that’s when he put that blue teal color in.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:26:18] I do know he was friends with Howard Johnson’s. No, I’m sorry he was friends with Kemmons Wilson, the founder of Holiday Inn. They were contemporaries, they were friends, they were on the interstate. It’s quite possible that he knew Howard Johnson. I don’t know that, though. I did not find that in any of his paperwork.

Mike Blake: [00:26:38] Yeah. Well, and Holiday Inn also has a trademark color scheme that makes it easy to see, right?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:26:43] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:26:43] You can’t miss that yellow and green.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:26:45] Yeah, I think he was definitely inspired by them. I’ve not found any paperwork to confirm that. And I think he just came up with the blue because it was different, nobody else was using it and you could see it from far off. And then, a lot of people did the yellow and red and their signage because of the visibility.

Mike Blake: [00:27:06] So, you touched on something that I didn’t think we’d be going in today. I hadn’t thought of it. But now that you bring it up, I think it’s really important. The south, I think, is undergoing a difficult cultural and identity transition, right?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:27:26] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:27:28] As the country comes to terms with reacquainting itself with its history, how we teach it, race relations, I think, are changing, certainly in the most radical way that I can remember, I was born in 1970, so I was after the Civil Rights Movement, was Stuckey’s being sort of an old school old South brand? Is that something that you’ve had to confront and really think about? How does it fit into the millennial or post-millennium vision of the South while still staying true to the core values? Is that something you’ve had to kind of wrestle with? And if so, how have you done that?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:28:10] Certainly. I think any southern brand that’s been around as long as we have has some racial history that you have to come to terms with and you have to address. And our history, just like our region, is messy and complicated when it comes to race.

Mike Blake: [00:28:29] Yeah.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:28:30] Stuckey’s has an interesting story in that we were never segregated in a time when many places were-

Mike Blake: [00:28:41] Interesting

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:28:41] … especially in the south. We never had a whites only sign on anything. We were always opening.

Mike Blake: [00:28:46] Good for you.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:28:46] My grandfather had a saying, “Every traveler is a friend.” And so, he wanted Stuckey’s to be known as a hospitality brand, as a welcoming place, and that really reflected his core values. He was a Christian, he was very philanthropic, he was a quiet donor, he was not very flashy in how he contributed to different charities he supported. And in fact, I have yet to track down the actual people, but I do know from my aunt that my grandfather actually paid to have several African-Americans from our hometown go to college. But I don’t have any specific records. I don’t have names. He did it quietly. But I say that to reflect that’s who he was. He was just a a caring person.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:29:41] And so, we were never segregated. And if you’ve seen the movie The Green Book, there’s actually a scene in the movie where they shop at a Stuckey’s for that very reason that we were not segregated. And I do have a lot of African-Americans of a certain age who told me that they remember stopping at Stuckey’s, and they also remember driving for long stretches and needing to stop, and their parents would say, “We’ve got to wait for Stuckey’s. We’ve got to wait for Stuckey’s.” And they said, “Well, we just thought our parents loved Stuckey’s, and they did,” but one of the people told me they realized many years later they had to stop at Stuckey’s, that was the only place they could stop.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:30:27] So, we’ve got that part of our history, but we also have a history where, frankly, we have sold Confederate flag memorabilia. We’ve sold — I’m not proud of it, but it’s part of our past, we’ve sold some of those black mammy’s little figurines. I’ve seen them in pictures of the stores. So, I know that is part of our past. I would like to think my grandfather didn’t mean any ill by that, but that is what he sold. We don’t sell it anymore.

Mike Blake: [00:31:07] Yeah, of course, you don’t sell them anymore. And look-

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:31:08] But I will say, when I took over the company, there were two stores that were selling Confederate flag stuff, and I stopped that. I said we will de-brand you, take that out of the store, that is not what we represent this day and age.

Mike Blake: [00:31:28] Yeah.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:31:28] And I just don’t want to get in the whole debate. I recognize there are people out there who feel very strongly that this is heritage, and I respect that, but that doesn’t mean we have to sell it in our souvenir store. You can buy that in a museum shop. So, I felt very strongly that we needed to really be a — For me, it comes down to being hospitable. Are we offering products, are we recreating an experience that is going to be welcoming to everyone? So, if there is a product that we sell that is going to alienate people, that is going to make people feel divided, I don’t want to sell it.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:32:10] And I get upset when I find out that our stores are selling Trump stuff. Frankly, that’s what I’ve heard. It’s not the other party, but Trump stuff. And I’m like, “I don’t want you selling Biden or Trump. Don’t sell it. Don’t sell anything that divides people. Don’t sell anything that antagonizes people.” Even with my background in politics, I always struggled with being a consensus builder. Like that’s what I wanted to be, and it was hard doing that in a highly charged partisan environment like Georgia politics.

Mike Blake: [00:32:46] Yeah. And someday, you’ll never have time for me to do this, but I would love to get your take on on politics generally because I’m sure you have such an informed view, but-

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:32:56] Yeah, I mean, I [crosstalk]-

Mike Blake: [00:32:58] … it makes no sense to align — Sorry?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:33:00] I walked away. I said I will not run again. This was not — I mean, no shame if you ran and got defeated, but I didn’t get defeated. I left.

Mike Blake: [00:33:09] Yeah.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:33:10] I did not seek re-election. I said, I’m done.

Mike Blake: [00:33:14] Yeah. Well, I think there are a lot of people that are doing that. But it’s interesting how you bring that up because you really are sort of sticking your fork in a toaster if you’re going to turn your company into a political platform, aren’t you?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:33:32] Yeah

Mike Blake: [00:33:32] Right? And especially now where things are so volatile, you can easily see a scenario where you have customers in your parking lot fighting each other under the right — Right? Because we see that in our society. And that sounds very antithetical to the brand that you have, right? So, why even approach it, right?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:33:57] Exactly. But I will say, I think there were some brands where that is entirely consistent with what they represent. And so, some brands-

Mike Blake: [00:34:06] For sure.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:34:07] … it’s good to be edgy, it’s good to be out there. I think of Nike doing the whole Colin Kaepernick commercial. I think that was a hundred percent aligned with what they represent. And so, it works for them. That’s not so much political, but it is something that was highly charged, right? I mean, they’re [crosstalk]-

Mike Blake: [00:34:29] For sure. I thought it was very risky for Nike to do that.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:34:32] It was risky and it wasn’t risky because when it came out, I thought not only was it just a beautiful ad, it’s so well done. But to me, it was just embracing their brand. And these people who were out there burning Nike sneakers, I thought, “Well, Nike’s making money off of that because people are out burning Nike sneakers for people who weren’t wearing Nike.” Those weren’t their peeps. So, they probably went out and bought some. They didn’t have them.

Mike Blake: [00:35:00] Well, and the data suggests you’re right because their stock price did go up, so.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:35:04] Yeah, it worked for their brand. So, just know what your brand is, and your brand may be political. That may be a hundred percent where you want to be. So, go in on it. That’s not us. And you also have to accept you cannot – and it’s hard sometimes, especially like me having been in politics, a lot of times, if you’re in politics, you’re a pleaser or you’re a people pleaser, you can’t be a people pleaser in branding. You cannot be all things to all people. What is your brand? We’re a road trip brand.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:35:40] I talked to this guy about six months ago and he said, “I’m not a road tripper. Tell me why I should stop at Stuckey’s.” I said, “You shouldn’t stop at Stuckey’s. You’re not our person. You’re not-”

Mike Blake: [00:35:50] Right.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:35:51] I mean, I would love for you to try our product, but if you don’t enjoy road tripping, we’re really not your brand.

Mike Blake: [00:35:59] Right, you have to drive 30 miles to get to our store, right, which is-

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:36:02] We’re on the interstate. And yes, we are branching out, we are getting in more venues, but even though we’re pushing the product, and we’re promoting the delicious pecan snacks and candies that we make, it’s all wrapped up in the story of the road trip. So, know what your brand is, and hunker down on that, and don’t try to be something that you’re not, don’t try to appeal to people that really aren’t going to connect with your brand. Not everyone’s going to like your brand. If you hate sugar, if you hate candy, then I would never try to sell you a pecan log roll.

Mike Blake: [00:36:42] Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, a brand is about — push brands don’t work, right?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:36:48] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:36:48] And brand is a poll asset, and you’re rallying people towards your banner for something, right? People who believe what you believe. I’m crazy a fan of Simon Sinek and all his thing about Star Wars.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:37:03] Oh, my gosh. Yes, I love Simon Sinek.

Mike Blake: [00:37:06] Yeah. Well, if you know him, tell him I want him on the program, but nobody’s been able to provide that yet, but-

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:37:13] I don’t know him. No, I’m just a total fan girl. I watch his YouTube videos every morning. I’ve got a cynic for video on Simon Sinek, Gary Vee.

Mike Blake: [00:37:22] Yeah.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:37:23] I’m a big Oprah fan. They all have just such great content that they put out. I listen to sort of an eclectic mix. I like Russell Brand. He’s got some philosophical side to him. But there’s some really great people out there that give wonderful perspectives, but Simon, yeah, Simon Sinek, like the whole getting to the why? Businesses know what they do. A lot of times, you may know how you do it, what your formula is, what your process is, but why are you doing it?

Mike Blake: [00:37:57] So, you walked in, you walked into that double wide trailer, realized that you had maybe not a brand change, but certainly a brand rehabilitation or reinforcement to do.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:38:08] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:38:08] Maybe that’s a better way to put it.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:38:12] That’s the patient.

Mike Blake: [00:38:13] What did that to-do list ultimately look like? If you could boil it down, what are some of the key steps you had to take in order to do that?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:38:20] Well, you said it in the very beginning, in the intro, the quote from Forbes about consistency. Branding is consistency. And I knew something about branding because I’ve been in politics. And so, you have to brand yourself, and I had a brand that was my family. So, in a way, it was easier for me because the brand was so personal to me. It was tied in with my own brand, so I had a good sense of what my brand was, and I understood the company, I understood my grandfather, and I knew the stories. I had great stories. And I had even more stories than I thought I have had having read all my grandfather’s papers. So, my playbook was really watching what Gary Vee advises you to do, which is every single day, you get out there and post on social media. It’s just that consistency, and it’s the storytelling.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:39:24] And it’s not just posting for post’s sake. It’s not just like, “All right, I’ve got to get something out there.” It’s got to have sticking power, and it’s got to have a higher purpose. It’s not about selling a pecan log roll; it’s about building a community. And you’re building a community around people that share an interest that you share. They care passionately about what you care about. I would rather have a small group of rabid fans that absolutely love our brand. There are a ton of people who buy our product because it’s cheap or easy to get, and they’re not loyal. There’s no sticking power there. So, the way you get that rabid fan base is you share something in common.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:40:15] So, I just started putting out their content that was long-form narrative storytelling about what we believed in. And I wrote down our brand attributes, and I made sure every time I did a post, it touched on those attributes. And the attributes are family-friendly, hospitable, pecans because we’re all about the pecan, Georgia-grown pecans, that sense of place, small-town America, road trips, vintage/retro, Americana, celebrating all things, small-town America. So, I kind of knew those themes. I had them written down. Sort of, I have this sheet, I have a visual. It’s a diamond. And the different facets of the diamond have different words on them for the brand attributes. It’s my brand diamond. You can use whatever works for you, but I look at that all the time and I think, “Am I being brand-forward? Is this family-friendly? Is this promoting the road trip?” It’s got to hit on some of those brand’s attributes.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:41:23] And it’s a slog. It is a slog. Every single person out there who’s got a million followers, they started with one. And you just keep at it. Somebody asked me yesterday because I didn’t know I was up this high, but it’s very gratifying, they said I had 72,000 LinkedIn followers. And when I started on LinkedIn, I think I had a thousand, which is a very respectable number to begin with, and that was from being a state rep and being head of sustainability for City of Atlanta, but I didn’t have 72,000. and I didn’t get 72,000 overnight. I got maybe a dozen a day, but you get a dozen a day over a couple of years, it adds up.

Mike Blake: [00:42:09] And this gets to a point that I think is important, I want to make sure that we get to because I think a common perception of changing or, in your case, rehabilitating a brand, but in this case, the difference is not material, and that is that, well, all you have to do is change your name, or a logo, or something; and therefore, you have a brain change, right? And to me, what you’re describing is exemplary of, at least, my view, and I may be completely wrong, but in a way, those are the two least important things. The brand is who you are every day, and the brand is what you will do every day. And most importantly, and this is why I think it’s so important, we go back to phasing out or wiping out kind of the Dixie, if you will, type memorabilia, Dixie type products in your product line, you define yourself by what you won’t do, right? You draw a line someplace.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:43:11] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:43:12] And I think that’s why there’s a lot of cynicism – at least I sense cynicism and I have cynicism about Facebook/Meta’s brand change is that it occurred only after Mark Zuckerberg had his rear end hauled before Congress to testify. And there started to be some talk about antitrust action, et cetera that it doesn’t seem like there’s a genuine change in the mission of the company, but rather it’s really just sort of a coat of paint; whereas, what you’re doing is by getting out there and being the lead cheerleader from the brand. And I remember the stories, I didn’t do the homework for this when I had you on the program, I love the story about you going out to Arkansas and seeing a hole in the roof of one of your stores. As a CEO, I cannot imagine how that must have impacted you. Or on the Christmas rush, you’re there with a picture of yourself on the line packaging stuff, right?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:44:13] I got so much grief from some of my team, though. They’re like, “Do you know how much it’s costing us for these boxes to have the CEO on the line?”

Mike Blake: [00:44:21] Well, you know what, it costs you a lot more for people to want to buy Stuckey’s products and they can’t get it.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:44:26] I’m like, “It’s branding too. It’s like showing that we are rolling up our sleeves and is all hands on deck.” And I absolutely needed to be there because we had to build a hundred boxes in a day, and we did 120.

Mike Blake: [00:44:41] Yeah. I mean, don’t we all want to work for somebody that will get down in the trenches with us?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:44:51] Yeah, [crosstalk].

Mike Blake: [00:44:51] Not just telling us what to do from from the corner office, but geez, I just got to get in there and do it, right? And I think that, what a boost for morale. I’ll bet you probably got a lot of resumes from people after that of people just want to work for you because of that.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:45:09] I did actually. And we can’t hire anyone because we don’t have enough money.

Mike Blake: [00:45:13] Right.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:45:15] We are scrappy. We are still a scrappy startup. I joke, we’re an 85-year-old startup. We are. And I think it’s really good to have that edge to be in that hungry space, that startup space. I think there’s something about it that really keeps you on your toes. But you’re right about the logo. You can’t just slap on a fresh coat of paint and say, “That’s a new brand.” But I do think one of the first things I did was bring the logo back to our original logo. But for me, that was an outward manifestation of an interchange.

Mike Blake: [00:45:56] Yeah.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:45:57] So, I think as long as what you’re doing externally is reflective of an internal shift, then it makes sense to have that name change, it makes sense to have that new design work done, but like you said, it has to be authentic and there has to be this message from the top that this is more than just we’re changing the logo.

Mike Blake: [00:46:24] So, a lot of companies doing what you’re doing, they bring in outside help – consultants and PR firms and branding experts and such. Did you avail yourself of that expertise as well? Or did you primarily make this an internal project?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:46:38] Both. So, initially — and this is just me, and I don’t want to give consultants a hard time because there’s a lot of really good ones out there, but there are also a lot that frankly will take your money.

Mike Blake: [00:46:52] Yeah.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:46:53] And rack up those billable hours.

Mike Blake: [00:46:56] They don’t have clients, they have victims.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:46:59] Yeah. So, I’m not trying to say I didn’t have good consultants because I think I did have some good help, but it did not make financial sense for us. We had a very small budget when I bought the company. Like I said, we were six figures in debt. And a little bit of money we had available was money that I frankly had invested. When I bought the company, I negotiated to invest a very small amount in the company to have some upfront capital to brand and to also work on a strategic plan. And so, I paid some consultants for that. And they were good. But we had such limited dollars, and we ran through that money in a matter of months. And so, then, I had to figure out how to do it myself. And that’s when I started watching Gary Vee and some of these other resources.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:47:58] And I think the lesson here is if you’re small, if you are scrappy, don’t think that you can’t try it yourself because a lot of the stuff, you really can do yourself, especially if you know your brand. Nobody knows the Stuckey’s story better than I do except my father and my aunt. No one. And so, that puts me in a unique position. And so, a lot of the stuff, you can do yourself. I just think too often we think, “Oh, we’ve got to hire this digital firm to run these digital ads.” And Lord knows I spent money on digital ads. And then, I went online and watched a couple of YouTube videos, and I do the ads myself.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:48:45] What I can’t do is the creative design work, and I do have an excellent — I have two graphic designers who are amazing, and I use them. And I do have a guy who helps me with copy who’s really, really good at helping me do the e-blast, and he helps with speechwriting. So, I do have a very good writer who supports me, and we work really well together, we have similar styles. But I cut back dramatically because I just didn’t have the funding for it. So, I still do it myself. We don’t have a marketing firm.

Mike Blake: [00:49:19] I’m talking with Stephanie Stuckey, and the topic is, Should I Rebrand My Company? I have so many questions. We’re not going to get to them all, and that’s my loss. But a couple I want to get to before we let you get back to – hopefully you’re not in a double wide trailer anymore, but if you are, that’s fine, but get back to your work day.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:49:38] That’s my home. I’m recovering from COVID.

Mike Blake: [00:49:40] Yeah, okay. Oh, really? Okay. Well, you sound great.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:49:44] Yeah, I got [crosstalk] cases. I think Atlanta is super spiking right now, and that’s [crosstalk].

Mike Blake: [00:49:48] Yeah, for sure.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:49:49] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:49:50] So, how would you describe your your brand resurrection or resuscitation effort? Do you think it’s been successful? Is it still a work in process? How do you evaluate it at this point?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:50:04] Work in progress.

Mike Blake: [00:50:06] Okay.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:50:06] And I’m still figuring out how to evaluate it because, obviously, you want metrics. My board especially wants metrics. So, I’m doing my best to hunker down and try to figure out what is the return on the investment that we have made with branding. And I think sometimes, that’s hard, because there’s too — I mean, generating sales comes from branding and in part. And there’s also just brand awareness. And it’s hard to measure, sometimes, that brand awareness piece if you don’t have the budget to go out and do some sort of market survey to say, “What’s your name recognition?” We don’t have that. We don’t have that budget.

Mike Blake: [00:50:54] So, it’s a work in progress, and I’m still trying to — I think for me, what I really hope moving forward is, can I figure out better ways to measure. And we are measuring conversion rate, and click rates and all the typical things that people measure. But it’s just, what is the value of people knowing your story? What is the value of people recognizing your name? But to me, that’s really hard to put in a spreadsheet.

Mike Blake: [00:51:28] It is. Stephanie, you’ve been so not only generous with your time, but really generous with your with your authenticity and revealing sort of the thought processes and emotional processes you’ve had to go through during this journey of yours. I’m sure there are questions that our listeners wish that I would have asked or wish that we would have spent more time on. We just didn’t have the time. If one of our listeners wants to follow up with you, would you be willing to share with them maybe some of your brand knowledge? And if so, what’s the best way to do that?

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:52:06] The best way is to send me an email. Linkedin messages are sporadic for me. I do my best to answer them, but I get a lot of LinkedIn messages and quite a fair amount of it is just out and out solicitation. So, sorting through all of the clutter to find the real genuine request to reach out to me is, sometimes, daunting when I’m running a company. But email, I get, and I look at, and I respond. If it’s a pure solicitation as a service that is not aligned with me, I’ll be honest, I started hitting just the delete button because I used to write polite replies, and I realize I was literally spending 40 minutes a day writing polite replies to people who are offering services that we didn’t need.

Mike Blake: [00:53:00] Okay.

Stephanie Stuckey: [00:53:00] If it’s something aligned with our brand, I will forward along to the appropriate person. But if you’re asking for advice, yes, I will respond. And it’s sstuckey@stuckeys.com. So, it’s sstuckey@stuckeys.com. And I can give that to you to put in your show notes.

Mike Blake: [00:53:17] Great, that’d be terrific. And you’re also on social media, and I would encourage our listeners, before you reach out to Stephanie, just simply watch what she does. She’s probably just going to tell you about what she’s doing anyway, but she sets a great example for how to reposition a brand, how to modernize a brand. And then, if you still have questions, go ahead and use it. And Stephanie is very generous with giving back to the community. But I would encourage you to do that homework first.

Mike Blake: [00:53:47] That’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. And I’d like to thank Stephanie Stuckey so much for sharing her expertise with us today. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week, so please tune in, so that when you’re faced with your next business decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy this podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us, so that we can help them. If you would like to engage with me on social media with my chart of the day and other content, I’m on LinkedIn is myself and at @unblakeable on Facebook, Twitter, Clubhouse and Instagram. Also check out my new LinkedIn group called A Group That Doesn’t Suck. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision Podcast.

 

Tagged With: Brady Ware & Company, Branding, Decision Vision podcast, Mike Blake, rebrand, rebranding, Stephanie Stuckey, Stuckey's

Kevin Hartley, Cambio Roasters

January 11, 2022 by John Ray

Kevin Hartley
Business Leaders Radio
Kevin Hartley, Cambio Roasters
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Kevin Hartley

Kevin Hartley, Cambio Roasters

Cambio is Spanish for change, and Kevin Hartley founded Cambio to reimagine a K-cup which is not only recyclable but supports coffee farmers and their families in a meaningful way. Kevin and host John Ray discussed Kevin’s background with Keurig Green Mountain, Cambio’s “triple bottom line” focus of profit, people, and planet, their various coffee blends, and much more. Business Leaders Radio is produced virtually from the Business RadioX® studios in Atlanta.

Cambio Roasters

Through extensive experience and research, Cambio Roasters knows that people love their Keurig® coffee makers, but there are still problems to address. Over 30 million K-Cups® end up in our landfills every day! Beyond that, coffee farmers struggle to have enough food to feed their families at least 6 months of each year. Cambio knew that with our dedication, experience, and big hearts, we could do something to help.

So, from their kitchen table in South Carolina and with their Keurig® coffee maker by their side, they envisioned a brand that was equal parts taste, recyclable, giving, and affordable! A brand that allowed them to give back to others, that shouts design, fun, and respect for the planet and its people. It’s tough to pick the priorities on that list, so they just went for it!

They package the best-tasting, small-batch roasted Arabican coffees from around the world and ship it in 100% recyclable coffee pods. They also respond to every inquiry right away, write hand-written notes to our customers, send them fun “surprises” at different times and offer free perks, just for giving Cambio a try. And, they donate 20% of our profits to Food 4 Farmers, who works with coffee farmers creating programs that help them feed their families during their “thin months.” They deliver affordable pods to your door, and make sure you receive a Welcome Package to say thanks! Who does all that?!

Company website | Facebook | Twitter | Instagram 

Kevin Hartley, Founder and CEO, Cambio Roasters

Kevin Hartley
Kevin Hartley, Founder and CEO, Cambio Roasters

Kevin Hartley is an accomplished C-suite executive with an impressive +25-year career that includes advancement to increasingly demanding leadership roles based on successful P&L management of several large, innovative businesses in a variety of industries. With a solid history of transforming organizations and implementing process improvements, he is as comfortable at driving revenues as he is in building top-performing leadership teams. His successes include founding and growing Green Mountain Energy, Innovation Partners, and Cambio Roasters in addition to driving Kuerig’s market cap from $100M to $14B as a member of the senior leadership team.

Most recently with Cambio Roasters, Kevin served as Founder and CEO for the country’s first 100% recyclable K-Cup brand focused on eliminating the annual waste of over 18B K-Cups. During this time, he led the organization through proof of concept and commercialization and launched the brand in all 50 states. Additionally, he championed a win-win product for consumers and farmers by returning 20% of all profits to coffee producers and their families while driving towards $100M in annual revenue.

Previously, Kevin served as a Chief Innovation Officer for Keurig Green Mountain. This role challenged him to aggressively scale Keurig’s footprint by developing and executing the innovation strategy to rapidly expand into new markets and utilize IoT technologies to drive sales. Accordingly, he built a world-class innovation team, positioned Keurig as the world’s premiere beverage systems company, and delivered $2B+ in top-line revenue by launching Keurig into new and adjacent markets. Also notable, he innovated the new single serve businesses model (Keurig Kold/Keurig Baby) and even earned a $2B+ investment from Coke. As a result, he helped sell Keurig for $14B, a market cap growth of 140X from when he joined the executive team.

Prior to this, Kevin founded Innovation Partners to help Fortune 500 brands such as 3M, Mobil, J&J, M&M Mars, GM, Bank of America, IHG, and others achieve phenomenal in-market results. By creating and executing strategies for marketing, product innovation, research, testing, pilots, and go-to-market launches, he delivered exceptional marketplace success for clients. As a result, he helped launch Heineken Light in North America, clarified BMW’s launch strategy for the MINI Cooper in a new market, and led the strategic research for Dunkin’ Donuts’ new evening food business.

Earlier in his career, Kevin founded, scaled, and successfully sold Green Mountain Energy, one of the nation’s most successful deregulated green-electricity brands, to British Petroleum (BP) for $100M in 1999. While leading this organization, he created and executed the deregulation strategy to drive the successful launch and spinoff of Green Mountain Energy as a separate, deregulated brand from Green Mountain Power. While serving in this role, he rapidly expanded the operational footprint by acquiring customers in deregulated markets such as CA, PA, MA, and TX. As a result, he earned the company a spot on the Inc. 500 list and recognition as nation’s most successful deregulated brand

Kevin launched his career upon obtaining his Bachelor of Science degree in Marketing from the University of Vermont. He went on to earn his Master of Business Administration degree in Finance, Strategy, and Marketing.

LinkedIn

Questions and Topics

  • Why are you attracted to triple bottom line companies, and what are they
  • Why did you start Cambio Roasters and what do you think is the opportunity
  • What makes Cambio Roasters different from all the other K-Cup brands
  • What do you most love about being a business leader
  • What are the top three tips you’d give to anyone looking to start and grow a business today
  • Tell us about the Keurig and Bob Stiller story

Business Leaders Radio is hosted by John Ray and produced virtually from the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® in Alpharetta.  The show can be found on all the major podcast apps and a full archive can be found here.

Tagged With: Business Leaders Radio, Cambio Roasters, coffee, Dunkin Donuts, Green Mountain, K-Cup, keurig, Kevin Hartley

Plain and Simple. It’s Hard to Be in Business or a Business Owner

January 10, 2022 by John Ray

Inspiring Women PodCast with Betty Collins
Inspiring Women PodCast with Betty Collins
Plain and Simple. It's Hard to Be in Business or a Business Owner
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Plain and Simple. It’s Hard to Be in Business or a Business Owner (Inspiring Women, Episode 40)

On this episode of Inspiring Women, Betty Collins discusses issues which are making business ownership particularly challenging today, and some of her recommendations for avoiding fear and paralysis. Inspiring Women is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Betty’s Show Notes

We’re in a new year again, and we just need it to be easier, right?

Many business owners have felt that they can’t move forward because they’re paralyzed. When you’re paralyzed, it means you can’t move. But if you’re a business owner or in business, you aren’t meant to be still, you aren’t meant to be not able to move. So you live in that fear.

But we can’t do that. We have to get to what’s driving the fear.

I’ve put it into a few categories in this episode. I’m sure that there are other things that you could add to it, but you really need to address these things.

This is THE podcast that advances women toward economic, social and political achievement. Hosted by Betty Collins, CPA, and Director at Brady Ware and Company. Betty also serves as the Committee Chair for Empowering Women, and Director of the Brady Ware Women Initiative. Each episode is presented by Brady Ware and Company, committed to empowering women to go their distance in the workplace and at home.

For more information, go to the Resources page at Brady Ware and Company.

Remember to follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts and Google Podcasts.  And forward our podcast along to other Inspiring Women in your life.

TRANSCRIPT

Betty Collins: [00:00:01] Has anyone ever inspired you to change your life that made you more fulfilled? Well, as a leader in your business and in your community, what are those questions that you ask yourself on a daily basis? It’s these questions that we explore on inspiring women. I am your host, Betty Collins, and I’m a certified public accountant, a business owner and a community leader who partners with others who want to achieve remarkable results for themselves and their organizations. I am here to help inspire you to a positive step forward for a better life. You know, plain and simple, it’s just hard to be in business or be a business owner in today’s environment. I mean, you know, 20, 20, let’s look back. That was a whole new world we had to totally deal with. And then twenty one was all about, we’re going to recover and we’re going to have normal. And now we’re in a new year again, and we just need it to be easier, right? Not easy, easier. And part of the reason I think that people get wrapped up in. How can this be easier, but they can’t move forward because they’re paralyzed? I mean, when you’re paralyzed, it means you can’t move. But if you’re a business owner or in business, you you are meant to be still you aren’t meant to be not able to move. So we live in that fear in general, but certainly has been as business owners in the marketplace.

Betty Collins: [00:01:33] We can’t do that. So we have to get to what’s driving the fear. I mean, what’s driving the fear? And I’ve kind of put it into a few categories, but I’m sure that there’s other things that you could add to it, but you really need to address those things. So as as you’re listening, I would be writing down what is driving the fear that’s paralyzing me. Well, I think overall leadership at our local, state and federal level, you know, in the country, I think in our companies, the politics of it all, there’s a lot of fear with that. The workforce is definitely something that is going to take some time after what we’ve been through to get back to the levels that we would like, so that’s a huge issue for people. And if you don’t have workforce, you can’t have the supply chain back. So that’s another thing that we’re a lot of fear about now. If you’re like me, I’m a professional services person. I don’t have a big problem with the supply chain. It doesn’t affect me much. But for a lot of people, it’s very real. I mean, we haven’t seen inflation like this in a long time. It makes people a little nervous, makes them a little afraid. And then I think, you know, for many people, the effects of that 20 20 year in that year, a lot of money in cash were thrown at business owners.

Betty Collins: [00:02:56] And that’s not the norm. We don’t get cash thrown at us because we had to kind of change our mindset in twenty one and now that we’re we’re heading into new years and a new time period. It’s now about us earning money again. It’s about our bottom lines. And because we don’t have a bunch of cash being thrown at us or that we can apply for or get for free. We’re back to that. Hey, we got to get a fair how to sell services and we got to figure out how to provide products so that we can actually earn money again. And I think one of the fears is people, you know, they’re tired. You hear that a lot. Well, OK, so how do we respond to fear? First, we got to do what I just did. You’ve got to identify them. I’m identifying the things that I see all the time with business owners. They just these are the things they talk about over and over, sometimes with fear that we retreat. We kind of suppress. We ignore it. We live in denial. I’m guilty of all those things. We get very sidetracked. Today is nothing. But all of a sudden you’re sidetracked over here and you’re consumed in this and a tweet came across and another notification and you can’t. And then subject matters at all gets you sidetracked. We focus on the negative when we when we’re in fear and remember again, when I said, we’re in fear, we’re paralyzed, we can’t move.

Betty Collins: [00:04:10] The other thing that we think about when we’re in these frame of minds is, Oh, no one else is experiencing what I’m experiencing, not true. And we’ll talk about that. And then we’re kind of holding our assets close. I mean, you’re holding them to you close. And what do you do when you hold something close? It’s not going to grow, it’s not going to go out there. It’s not going to make into something because you’re hovering, you’re holding it. So those are things that we do when we when we have fear. I always ask this question. So now what? Ok, you’ve talked about the fears you know of. I’ve written down some fears. We’ve talked about how we respond to them. So now what? What do I do? Well, if you’re this is a business session, this is about being a business owner. The marketplace is your answer. The marketplace working is your answer and you have a role to play in that as a business owner and a leader. That’s the key. So go back and start with your why and get it figured out. I mean, for me, I keep that focus. I keep that in my forefront. I had someone help me go through Simon Smith’s University of Why. And it came up with when, when the U.S. works, the world works, and I took it a step further and instead when employers, which means they have employees, are taken care of.

Betty Collins: [00:05:26] Those are people that are getting provisions and those are households that form our communities. So in times where I have to look and go, OK, I got to focus on what’s important. I pull out that why I have it in front of me, I go back to that. The other thing when I say now what? Well, control what you can and influence what you’re not controlling to get it to where you need it to be. And of course, you have to look at, you know what? Change is not an option. We all changed in twenty twenty. I hate the word pivot, but we used it a lot. But we had no choice and we really didn’t have those choices in twenty one. And as we go into new times, we’re still not having that choice. And then you have to deal with what keeps you up at night. That’s the hardest thing. If you want more sleep and not wake up at two o’clock, everyone has that conversation. You already know what it is, right? You wake up and you start thinking about it. I used to wake up and instead of just like being grateful that I’m up and going and had a good night’s sleep, I thought, Well, I’ve got to do this. I got to do that and I got to do this.

Betty Collins: [00:06:24] And what about this and what? What keeps you up at night? And I kind of, you know, the overall. So I’m going to go back to these, the overall leadership and politics, the environment that workforce, the supply chains, financial concerns, people are like, well, the stock market’s rocking, Oh, it went down five hundred. No stop. Stop that. We’re going to talk about what you do with that. And then, you know, we still are kind of talking about twenty twenty and twenty one, right? We’re still. But are we looking back or are we looking forward? What keeps you up at night? And I think exhaustion sometimes can keep you up at night because you just can’t wind down and you’re just beyond. Let’s talk about these things that keep you up at night. Things about business owners that are crazy the workforce. Eighty three percent of businesses are struggling with real workforce access. They just don’t have people coming back to work. They don’t have new, new folks. It’s just that way. Eighty three percent, this is not a problem for just hey, retail or restaurants. It’s bigger than than that. It was really tight prior to COVID. I don’t think most people knew that. So when we went through this time period of tremendous change, I think it’s going to take a time period to have it change. Back when I was coming across information about the workforce, this was one of the statistics I was very, very surprised in.

Betty Collins: [00:07:45] 50 percent of teenagers work today. That’s mind boggling to me. We all worked when I was growing up. My kids all work, so it’s not just my generation and now we’ve taken that workforce out of our system. So I don’t know if it’s parents. Put your kids back to work because we’re all focused on act scores and college prep and et cetera, sports and being in two or three sports. But that has contributed to our workforce. So we’ve got to figure out how to get some of that back. You know, people think the shortages, they come up with these things, it’s like, do you have any research or data on it? And there’s some myths about it. You know, people stay home, they get paid more. That was only for three percent of the country during 2020 and 21. Well, if you pay more, they’ll come to work. No. They’re making outrageous offers right now to folks. In fact, if you ask people who are unemployed or employed, what is the number one thing they really want to they want to have in their job? It’s flexibility because they’ve been used to it over this last couple of years. Another myth is that we just are showing a lack of interest or people, and they just that’s not true. There’s a shortage of people. There was pre COVID.

Betty Collins: [00:08:55] So what are the solutions? You know, what do we do to get that workforce back? Well, part of it is I think you’re going to see it happening. First of all, the state and federal unemployment has ended. And so and that’s probably not going to go back to those those levels again, where they’re giving additional money for people to so that they could make it through this time. Another thing is in this may sound harsh, but you can you can now evict people. There’s not a lot of those things going on where for a while you couldn’t evict people if they weren’t paying rent. Another factor is student loan deferment is now over. So that’s another factor, right? But on the other side of that’s the income side. The other is that households, a family of four, it’s about one hundred and seventy five to two hundred dollars more a month to live in cost between food and gas and basic needs. So at some point, you’re going to start seeing people come back to work. For that reason, though, the incomes are gone and the expenses are higher. So I think you’re going to start seeing that, but I still think it’s going to take some time. So you’re going to be up at night. When it comes to your workforce, you’re going to be thinking about that. It’s just harder to do business. So any option and any idea and anything thing take that you can have with your team is crucial during this moment.

Betty Collins: [00:10:13] So you can hire and get on track solutions, pay more sure increase hours. Make sure certainly that you are competitive giving people more hours, especially if they were a 30 hour week. Can you can you do thirty two to thirty five? That would help anything to make productivity better. So you’ve got to evaluate your products and your services and how you’re delivering them and how you’re doing it. Because when you do that kind of stuff. Bingo, you don’t need as many people. So those are that’s another solution. And then you’ve got to focus on five very basic things when it comes to your workforce training, training, training and training. Now that’s not all my five, but training must exist for your employees. They want that. And when they have that and training isn’t just here’s how you do your job. Here’s why we do this. Here’s why we do our salad this way because we want it to be a certain product for the client. That’s why we do this. It’s why we order this kind of food to make it, et cetera, et cetera. So training is not just about here’s how you do it. Here’s why we do it. The other thing you have to focus on is adaptability. Flexibility is the number one thing people are looking for in their jobs right now.

Betty Collins: [00:11:25] Are you hybrid? Can I be home? Can I come in sometimes? Am I going to be hoteling my office? I mean, what can I do? Can I work any time from Monday through Sunday just so I get my job done, et cetera? When you look at those things, the next thing is then how are you going to recruit if you’re going to give those options? Because that’s what people are looking for and you’re looking for people. So you’ve got to be looking at what they are looking at and partnering with educational facilities around you. You know, it was funny. I have a client who is a cleaning company, and the Baby Boomers, of course, are starting to really, really retire. Kind of they still are working part time, but they’re doing things like, I just want two days a week where I can get out and do something. And so this cleaning company all of a sudden has had some retirees. So I said, Well, great. Go to your local senior center, go to your local community areas where older people hang out because they might see a job posting. They don’t want to go online, they don’t want to try to register that way. Instead, they might see something that looks more personal and just call you. It’s a great way to get that. Workforce, because they’re out there and they’re this is a very driven generation. And then you’ve got to consider.

Betty Collins: [00:12:32] Should I get some contingent workers in place contracts and temporary things which take attorneys and insight? But so those are some of the things you can do when you’re focusing on the five basics to get that workforce back. But eighty three percent of are going through it and focus on not what we used to do, focus on what do we need to do and the five things that I just talked about. What else keeps you up at night? Why is it hard to do business and be a business owner, the supply chain? I will tell you that when we get the people back to work, we will have our stuff right. I have a person who is in promotional products and instead of selling what they normally sell, and if client calls and wants this, they direct them to something that they can get. Ok. She’s had. And she says taking the order now is just not taking the order. It’s really giving them all kinds of different options of what’s available. And so she’s had to really work at that. But the five supply chain drivers are production, inventory, location and transportation and information. So those are the things that you need to have some influence on. Maybe you become the supplier. I have somebody doing that in right now in construction because he can’t get wood to build decks. So he’s like, everyone can’t get wood to build decks.

Betty Collins: [00:13:42] So he started buying wood and building it up and guess who has the wood he does because he’s now the supplier? He fixed his own supply problem by continually ordering bulk and finding it where he could find it. It took some time to build up. It was not instant, but now he is the supplier selling things that are really, really good profit. You know, the thing that needs to happen in our supply chain is that complexity needs to be removed and regulation has to be worked on. Do not ever underestimate that if you are big and need supplies and you can’t get it and you know it’s bogged down in regulation, call your representatives and your senators and people that are influential. These are everyday people. Most of them don’t look at the news, look at who’s in your in your districts and start calling them and say, I really need help. My association, this or my lobbying group that or I’m a business owner and I need this. How can you help me? Do not underestimate the power of that phone call because you have to try to to get that complexity removed. Companies with being intentional will win, and it will have the advantage. So when this guy goes out and buys his own lumber and just keeps stockpiling it, he now has something that somebody needs. It’s the same thing in the services industry as well. So you have to look at the supply chain as what can I control about it or it’s just going to take longer or I’m going to not sell as much.

Betty Collins: [00:15:05] So I’m going to have to sell it for more. You have to look at how can you control it and it will come back, especially as the workforce comes back. People have made a ton of stuff that’s sitting on ships. Believe me, they want to sell it, believe me. The other things that keep people up at night really are financial concerns. And it’s funny. This was a funny one because people are like, I’m holding onto my cash. I’m not going to borrow any money. And oh my goodness, and look at this. And then I have people who are like, Look at the stock market, we are rocking it. I mean, so both people are living in worlds of sort of you’re only focused or your your tunnel vision. You have to look at more than one thing when it comes to the financial concerns because this is what holds businesses back from reinvestment. They’re like, I better not do it now because who knows what’s going to happen to my four one kay or my savings or my line of credit, et cetera. These are the things you pay attention to. The stock market’s the easiest one. First, I have a very good financial planner. Do not try to play that. If you you can really lose very badly in that.

Betty Collins: [00:16:02] But the stock market is is very holding. It is thirty six thousand. It is all those things. It could go to thirty four. It could go up five hundred one day and eight hundred. It’s not the only indicator out there that you should be making financial decisions on interest rates. Right now they’re holding and the feds are doing that intentionally. So you really have to look at that interest rate thing and go, are they going up? Which interest rates going up the kind where I earn money in the bank? No. Or the kind I’m paying on my credit card or my loans. And right now, they’re holding those things. So that’s a strong indicator. How long will they hold it? So that’s why you look at it, what’s going to happen in twenty three and watch those interest rates? So now you’re watching the stock market, you’re watching the interest rates, look at unemployment rates. And yes, we are coming back and people are going to go to work. And we saw that even the numbers continue to get better with people who are not filing unemployment claims across the country. That number is a really important number. We’re very used to that being low, but you need to to continue to watch that, obviously during COVID when it went to 18 and 20 percent. Of course, that’s crazy, but that’s not where we normally live and it came back very quickly.

Betty Collins: [00:17:08] Inflation rate, everyone is not used to this. I remember it in the seventies. I remember my brother buying a house and 15 percent interest was what it was. And the day he got that to be, six percent was like a huge deal. But interest rates play. So not only just interest, I’m sorry in. Violation rates, interest, inflation, unemployment stock market, you need to watch all those, and if it’s something that overwhelms you, then get somebody to help you with that, whether it is your account or your financial planner. Economists are out there. They can be hard to understand sometimes, but those are things to pay attention to when you’re making financial decisions. But living in fear or making quick judgments on one factor is going to paralyze you and we all know what paralyzed does. You can’t move the other two things in financial concern. I’m not going to spend a lot of time on today, but they’re not easy. Is the GDP, which is really just the market value of your final goods and services? Is that growing? If it’s not and it’s stagnant, then you have to look and go, Oh, it’s stagnant. But all the costs to do business is continuing to go up. Those are things you watch the last one, which everyone kind of understands, but you know, maybe you don’t talk about it all the time is the consumer price index.

Betty Collins: [00:18:25] You know, what do you pay for things now? Well, I just said earlier in this podcast, groceries, basic needs and gas on a family of four is up one hundred and seventy five dollars a month. So we are paying more. But our are the goods that we’re selling are there’s something you can sell it for more right? Or is it going to be stagnant? So when you’re talking financial concerns, don’t just look at one thing. So then what other keeps us up at night? Well, the uncertainty, just the uncertainty from day to day in your operations. So what? What does that mean? Well, I’m going to tell you to stay with the basics of business. There are three things you stick with. I don’t care if it’s good times, bad times, I don’t care if it’s 19 and we’re roaring and 20 we stop and twenty one we climb out of a hole and twenty two. We’re optimistic and twenty three, et cetera. It doesn’t really matter. These are basics of business that you must practice if you’re going to have success and life is going to be not as hard. When I when I talk about plain and simple, it’s just hard to be in business. Stay with the basics. Number one, align your leadership. If you do not have aligned leadership, everybody going in the same direction, everybody in agreement. At the after they’ve all disagreed, we’re going to agree to disagree, but I mean, they must be aligned.

Betty Collins: [00:19:37] There must be a an absolute strong unity. Stick to strategy. That’s the second one. You do not want to have shoot from the hip. Let’s pivot. Now, let’s make a rash decision. No stick to strategy. Strategy means you’re thinking about it. You have a plan. It means you have purpose. You’re pulling all together. Your strategy needs to be relevant as well in the market time that you’re in. So don’t look at the what we call Sally in accounting, which is same as last year. But you have to stick to strategy and then you have to strengthen your sales and your operations together. You can have all kinds of sales goals if you don’t have supply chain and supplies and product to sell or you don’t have people to service, it doesn’t matter that you put all your focus and strategy on. We’re going to grow 30 percent or, hey, we’re going to just not hire anybody because we can’t hire anyone. And so we’re just going to be flat. And but the sales department is still going to grow. No, when you’re dealing in bigger contracts are bigger things you have to get with the operations, day to day folks and the people who are selling the product. So before you take a contract or before you decide to sell something or whatever it is, do you have the supplies and do you have the people? So those have to go hand in hand? It doesn’t matter that you want to grow 20 percent if you don’t have the people in the service to do, it doesn’t matter.

Betty Collins: [00:21:02] I mean, we have Bob Evans in our area right now who a lot of times can’t open for dinner because they have a host and a cook so they can talk all they want. That restaurant sales needs to be this today. Well, if you’re only open eight hours and their model and plan is to be open 15, you’re not going to meet those sales goals because you don’t have this. What some restaurants have just done has become very good at carryout because you can do that with a skeleton crew, so you still have to come with those options because everything in that store, strategy wise and and when you’re pulling your sales and operations together are counting on that. So you have to do those basics of business when you feel uncertain, stick to basics, align your leadership, stick to strategy and strengthen sales and operations together. You know, you’re up at night, and I made the comment that you probably have a night because you’re so exhausted. Have you ever had those nights where you can’t sleep because you’re just exhausted? I’ve had that right. So how do we quit being as exhausted as we continue to go forward? Well, here are things that I have personally done, and quite frankly, they work.

Betty Collins: [00:22:02] It’s been great for me. I have very little social media. You know why? Because it just takes from me more than it gives. Shut it down. Shut it down. Stop. I’ve actually gotten into crossword puzzles and reading a lot more. I still, though, must be informed you can’t just hide from the world what you’re living in. So research your outlets and make sure that their outlets that are making decisions on truth or giving you truthful information so you can make the decisions. You will not be as exhausted when you can be very cut and dry. Now, one of the things I like is the Epic Times. It’s a conservative newspaper, but I can go in there and it gives me my headlines of the day. It’s not sexy, it’s not jazzy. Because you know what? It’s just news. It’s not opinions. It’s not. Here’s an editorial. It’s just this happened today, OK? At least I know kind of what happened. If I want to click on it, I can. Part of not being exhausted, part of getting some good sleep at night is you have to plan restoration. I know for myself when I know my week is going to be a certain way, I do this now. I look at Sunday or I look at Saturday or Thursday afternoon. I find a time where since I knew Tuesday and Wednesday, we’re going to be absolutely mind boggling.

Betty Collins: [00:23:15] I’m going to be home at Thursday working or I’m going to come. I’m going to take off a little earlier. I’m going to make sure Thursday night isn’t filled with an activity because I need to have a little bit of quiet, maybe with a nice firepit night. It doesn’t matter that it’s Thursday night. I need that restoration to get through Friday and the weekend or whatever it is. When I know that I’m going to hit some certain deadlines right after that, I always make sure there’s a day spa. Something right doesn’t have to be a whole day. It doesn’t have to be crazy. But I have planned restoration when I know my children are coming and they’re bringing their beautiful babies. I know in 30 hours of that, I’m going to be exhausted so nothing can be planned for the next 24 hours because I’ve got I’m going to need to totally overhaul my house because I wanted a certain way, and I know that I’m going to have to plan to rest so that I can enjoy them. But then I’m OK. Planned restoration elimination of negative people just continued to get those purge those people out of your life. You won’t be nearly as exhausted and then you have to look at that balance of health, their spiritual, physical and emotional. They all work together. This was one who changed a lot for me in 2021, the year of twenty twenty one when I came in after a year pandemic, of course, I said I got to do something different and I found a book about rhythm and balance.

Betty Collins: [00:24:33] And in this book, it talks about, here’s the stuff that takes from you, and here’s the stuff that that gives to you. And here’s how much you need. In each balanced quarter, there were four areas, but one of the things that I really learned from that book was the first, and the last hour of the day is really crucial. How I spend my first hour of the day, I how do I want to spend that? I want to get up a little slower and I want to enjoy my house a little bit more and have coffee. I want to pack a healthy lunch. There’s just this vision I had for that first hour of the day. At the end of the day, I don’t want to wind down with TV because it distracts me. I don’t want to wind down with social media because it would distract me. Instead, I wanted to read something positive. I wanted to have some time of gratitude. I chose how I ended my day, which means when I ended that way, I sleep better. And when I start my day, I have a better day. So control the first and last hour of your day. You’ll be amazed in that. You’ve got to figure out what you want that to be.

Betty Collins: [00:25:34] So that’s that’s just as much, you know, you’re created on purpose for a purpose. I’ve never been a big fan of a of a life statement, but I am a big fan of my why and when I’m talking to you, the business owner and people who are in business, when you get discouraged with it, I make sure I focus on my why and what is that? Well, my why is when the U.S. works, the world works. But I took it a step further and I like the when employers have employees, those folks get their provision from that, from that business owner. Those are those are households, right? And those households form our communities. And what I can focus on that is my purpose. That is why I was created to help in this segment called accounting. I can clear the air a little bit. I can go, OK. You can do this. And what I would tell you is what I continue to do, so I’m not so exhausted is I’m bringing back the things that I miss in my life, especially from pre pre-COVID. Those are important things. You know, socialization is huge for me, things that I just really wanted to get together with more. I just started doing that. I have a friend who said, I just want to go to dinner and not talk about COVID 19 in politics and stuff.

Betty Collins: [00:26:48] I just wonder, know how your kids are. I just want to have some fun. I just want some light enjoyment. That was that’s what she’s missing. So she’s making sure she’s doing that and those things will energize you. They will give back to you, and the exhaustion will continue to to be less. So those are the things I want to talk about in the plain and simple, it’s just hard to be in business. It’s just hard to be a business owner. So get hold of those things that are keeping you up at night. Deal with the things. Call this thing called fear, so you’re not paralyzed. Get some help to get through these things. Maybe if they’re too much for you, economic wise, or you feel like you’ve got to be an economist to understand those things that I talked about. You’ll see a difference. I have seen that difference. So I’m just grateful that you joined me today, and I hope this podcast was inspiring for you. Inspired women has been presented by Brady Ware & Company as your career advancements continue, your financial opportunities will continue to grow. Be prepared. Visit Brady Ware to find out more about the accounting services. They can assist you to that next level. All this, plus more about the podcast, can be found in the show notes for this episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. Feel free to share the show or give us a review. Remember, inspiration is powerful. Whose life will you be changing?

Tagged With: Betty Collins, Brady Ware, business, business owner, fear, Inspiring Women

Keys to a Smooth Practice Transition, with Danielle McBride, Oberman Law Firm

January 7, 2022 by John Ray

Oberman Law Firm
Dental Law Radio
Keys to a Smooth Practice Transition, with Danielle McBride, Oberman Law Firm
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Oberman Law Firm

Keys to a Smooth Practice Transition, with Danielle McBride, Oberman Law Firm (Dental Law Radio, Episode 30)

Danielle McBride, Partner at Oberman Law Firm, talks with host Stuart Oberman about the elements needed for a successful and smooth sale of a dental practice. Danielle discusses ingredients like having the best advisors in the dental industry, detailed financials, quality of earnings, and much more. Dental Law Radio is underwritten and presented by Oberman Law Firm and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

 

Danielle McBride, Partner, Oberman Law Firm

Danielle McBride
Danielle McBride, Partner, Oberman Law Firm

Danielle McBride has been practicing law for over 21 years, and her primary focus is representing healthcare clients on a local, regional, and national basis. Ms. McBride regularly consults with clients regarding simple to complex healthcare transitions, including mergers and acquisitions, employment law, governmental compliance, tax strategies, practice valuations, DSO formation and structures, employee compensation, associate and partnership contracts, joint ventures, and partnership buy-in/buy-outs.

In addition, Ms. McBride brings a wealth of knowledge and experience preparing practice valuations for clients, as well as formulating simple to complex tax strategies, and entity formations.

Ms. McBride holds a Bachelor of Arts in Sociology/Criminology from The Ohio State University, a Juris Doctor (J.D.) from Ohio Northern University Pettit College of Law, and a Master of Laws (LL.M.) in Taxation from Case Western Reserve University.

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TRANSCRIPT

Intro: [00:00:02] Broadcasting from the Business RadioX Studios in Atlanta, it’s time for Dental Law Radio. Dental Law Radio is brought to you by Oberman Law Firm, a leading dental-centric law firm serving dental clients on a local, regional, and national basis. Now, here’s your host, Stuart Oberman.

Stuart Oberman: [00:00:26] Welcome everyone to Dental Law Radio. We have a very, very special guest today, Danielle McBride, Partner in Oberman Law Firm. And a little background on Danielle – she’s very busy right now – Danielle has been practicing for 21 years and her primary focus is health care transactions, mergers, acquisitions on a local, regional, and national basis. Big, big in M&A transactions, employment law compliance, tax strategies – as you heard on a previous podcast. And we’re going to have some subsequent podcasts that Danielle is going to join us on – practice valuations, DSO formation. Lord, everything is DSO. Everything is scaling nowadays.

Stuart Oberman: [00:01:13] A little education background on Danielle, she graduated from Ohio Northern University with her law degree. And she has a Masters in Taxation from Case Western University. And we are absolutely delighted to have you in the studio, as we say, Danielle. And I know today you’re going to talk about keys to ensure a smooth practice transition, and you could maybe elaborate on this. It is an amazing market. It is a hot market like I’ve never seen in my years of practicing. Valuations are out the roof. Private equity is throwing money at transactions.

Stuart Oberman: [00:01:58] But there’s a lot of misconceptions about what it takes to have a smooth transition, and I really want to drill down on your expertise. You’ve been doing this for over 21 years, and I want to hear what you have to say and your thoughts all the way from due diligence to leveraging advisors. So, give me your thoughts on some matters regarding what it takes to have a smooth transition, as we say.

Danielle McBride: [00:02:29] Well, thanks, Stuart, for having me on the podcast. And, yeah, this is Keys to a Smooth Practice Transition. I kind of call this my ABCs. A is for advisors. One of the best things that you can do for yourself is to surround yourself with the best advisors you can. And they should be specialized, you know, professionals in this area, in the dental industry.

Danielle McBride: [00:02:57] Leverage your advisors that have the experience in these transactions. I mean, there are dental specific lawyers like us. There are dental accountants. There are dental finance lenders. There are dental brokers. All of these people, all of these advisors have a ton of experience. This may be your one and only transaction, buying a practice or selling a practice or merging going in with a DSO. We’ve done hundreds, if not thousands, of these transactions, these advisors have.

Danielle McBride: [00:03:29] So, you know, it’s important to get those specialized professionals to work with you. And they’re out there. And if you have at least one of those advisors, they can help you find others. If you’re in need of a dental specific lender, if you’re a buyer of a practice, if you’re in need of a dental specific accountant, there are lots of other financial business and consultants that have specialized knowledge in the dental field. And that’s my A, you know, my ABCs.

Danielle McBride: [00:04:04] The second is your business. You’ve got to know your business. And it’s important whether you’re looking to sell to a third party or to a DSO in these transactions. Knowing your business, knowing the numbers, having the data that’s going to be requested through all of the due diligence is going to be one of the most important things that you do in these transactions.

Stuart Oberman: [00:04:25] I got a question for you. I got a question for you. You do valuations. We hear –

Danielle McBride: [00:04:30] Yes. I do practice valuations. And so, one of the keys in those valuations is profitability in the practice transition.

Stuart Oberman: [00:04:37] We hear this all the time, “Know your numbers,” what does that mean? When someone says, “Well, I got to know my numbers.”

Danielle McBride: [00:04:47] Know your numbers.

Stuart Oberman: [00:04:48] What does that mean? I mean, our guys, it doesn’t seem like they understand that a lot of times.

Danielle McBride: [00:04:55] Yeah. So, knowing your numbers means a couple of different things. One is being able to get the data on new patients, and insurance plans, and how much of your practice is PPO plans versus fee for service. Those kind of numbers are important. But the key numbers are profitability.

Danielle McBride: [00:05:17] Or sometimes in these DSO transactions you hear being thrown around EBITDA, E-B-I-T-D-A, Earnings Before Income Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortization. It’s essentially, not just the net income, it’s profitability, it’s the cash flow in the practice. You got to look beyond W-2 compensation or net profit. It’s that plus add back. Discretionary expenses, I like to call them. The perks that the doctor runs through the practice.

Danielle McBride: [00:05:49] It can also be things like family on the payroll, if they’re being paid more or less than what would be fair salary for someone doing the work that they’re doing in the practice. It can also be rent. You know, looking at fair rent and whether you’re paying yourself above or below what fair market rent is on a piece of property or your office building that you also own along with the practice.

Stuart Oberman: [00:06:13] Is your specific profit margin? You hear like, “Well, you should be netting out 20 percent profit or 40 percent profit.” Is there a magic number that’s sort of advisable for those things?

Danielle McBride: [00:06:26] Well, it varies based on the specific type of practice. So, your general dental practice might be running an overhead of 60, 61 percent, 40 percent profitability. And that 40 percent of profitability is your W-2 income, your profit, your discretionary add backs, adjustments for paying yourself high rent on your building, non-recurring expenses, if you hired a consultant to come in one year, those sort of things. It’s going to vary if you’re an oral surgeon or if you’re an orthodontist or a pediatric dentist. There are different percentages for those different specialties.

Stuart Oberman: [00:07:11] Huh? Now, I know we do a lot of DSO transactions as a firm, so if they’re getting ready to sell their practice, how should they prepare due diligence? Should they say, “Hey, Danielle. I’m ready to sell my practice. I know there’s a lot of due diligence on the DSO side. Can you send me a due diligence checklist so I can start preparing for this?” How do they prepare for due diligence, which will wear them out a lot of times?

Danielle McBride: [00:07:42] Yeah. It’s going to wear them out and you’re going to get asked for stuff over and over again.

Stuart Oberman: [00:07:46] The same stuff.

Danielle McBride: [00:07:46] You’re going to send them all of your quarter one, quarter two, quarter three, quarter four financial statements and tax returns. And every insurance provider you take in the practice. Some of the banks even ask for monthly profit and loss statements for the year, especially after COVID.

Danielle McBride: [00:08:13] COVID kind of changed things from a financial perspective. From the lender’s perspective, it used to be that you could get away with sending them the years worth of financial statements and tax returns. And then, we had COVID and then they wanted to see month by month. So, we wanted to see every month of 2019, and every month of 2020, and every month of 2021 so far.

Danielle McBride: [00:08:36] So, having the ability to get at least quarterly financial statements is an important part of the due diligence. And then, they’re just going to ask you for every business insurance, every business license, every license for every staff member and doctor in the office. They’re going to ask for balance sheets.

Danielle McBride: [00:08:56] And if there are liens on the practice, which is often one thing that people forget. So, if you had an SBA loan, for instance – a lot of people had this. I just had this with a transaction – SBA EIDL Loans, you can pay those off. My client actually got an email from the SBA saying, “This is your authorization to file a UCC termination on the lien that we have on your practice.” And we needed to get that termination statement filed to clear it for the lender so that the buyer’s lender would actually fund the transaction. So, there are things like that.

Stuart Oberman: [00:09:36] Do you see a lot of PPP problems right now? Loans are not being authorized to pay back and items are being withheld on the transaction?

Danielle McBride: [00:09:48] I did earlier in the year. So many of the PPP loans have finally gotten forgiven. That that problem has started to get a little bit easier to deal with. Usually, it’s some document references on the PPP loans and that it’s been forgiven and some sort of proof to the lenders or the buyer that it’s actually been forgiven.

Danielle McBride: [00:10:12] But I did have to do a lot of escrows. And back in 2021, I first started doing transactions again after COVID opened back up and the lenders started lending again. I was having to escrow funds for PPP because the guidance came out from the IRS saying that you had to escrow the amount of the PPP loan with the bank. And the banks were like, “We don’t know how to do this.” So, you know, I was actually escrowing funds into attorney escrow accounts and holding it because the bank wasn’t prepared to do it.

Stuart Oberman: [00:10:44] Wow. So, do you recommend from an expedient standpoint smooth transaction that we have sort of a due diligence checklist, whether it’s us or whomever, provide that due diligence checklist information to whoever the adviser is and then put that information – we’ll call it a data room? And then, this way the seller or the buyer can get in there and start plucking that information. Is that something that you thought?

Danielle McBride: [00:11:16] A lot of times, if you’re working with these bigger DSOs, they will do exactly that. They’ll have some sort of service where you’re uploading your documents and they will have a checklist that they have to go through. Because a lot of the private equity lenders, they’ve got checklists and they want to see each and every one of those items checked off before they will give the green light to fund the transaction.

Stuart Oberman: [00:11:36] Now, some of these bigger deals, we hear the term quality of earnings. Quality of earnings, what does that mean? Because a lot of the buyers on the corporate side will spend a lot of money on quality of earnings. Our doctors, I don’t think, really understand what that means and how that affects their practice.

Danielle McBride: [00:11:58] Well, I think the quality of earnings is really going back to the profitability in the EBITDA of the practice and the better the cash flow is. It’s sort of like when you hear the old adage, “Okay. Well, what is my practice worth as a percentage of collections?” And everybody says, “Oh, it should be 75 percent of collections or 65 percent of collections.” Well, that’s great.

Danielle McBride: [00:12:19] But if you have two $1 million practices and one has a 65 percent overhead and the other one has a 50 percent overhead, they’re both not worth 65 percent of gross revenues. One has a better quality of earnings. One has a better cash flow. One has higher profitability. And the practice is going to support that buyer and provide a higher profit ratio for that buyer, that DSO, that corporate purchaser.

Danielle McBride: [00:12:53] And especially for a private party, too, I mean, that’s what you want to look for, a practice that has a better cash flow, higher profitability. And you can clearly see that in the tax returns. That’s another thing, too, that a lot of sellers have to think about this. A lot of them have been aggressive with their deductions, but they’ve also maybe been a little lax about putting the documentation together and being clear on that. And so, sometimes when you get a practice like that where they’re just running a ton of things through the practice, you got to sometimes do a little bit clean up because the buyer is going to ask those questions and they’re going to want to see, “Well, where is the cash flow?”

Stuart Oberman: [00:13:30] That never happens. You mean doctors are running their personal stuff through the practices? Are you kidding me?

Danielle McBride: [00:13:34] That never happens, right?

Stuart Oberman: [00:13:39] Are you saying the house payment, and the kids, and the trip – wow. Well, they call this add backs. Is that what they call those?

Danielle McBride: [00:13:51] Add backs. I like to refer to them as discretionary expenses.

Stuart Oberman: [00:13:55] Or having their six year old child, son or daughter, make $10,000 a year –

Danielle McBride: [00:14:02] Yeah. They model for the website. They got to pay them something.

Stuart Oberman: [00:14:05] Or the flyer for the office. Wow. That’s a lot of stuff. And this could be a conversation for hours and hours and hours. Well, I think that if our doctors take this information, figure out when they’re going to sell, how they’re going to sell, who their advisors are, what do they need to do to get prepared, I think this is great advice. How do they reach you if they have any questions on the sale, the due diligence?

Danielle McBride: [00:14:38] They can reach out to Oberman Law Firm at 770-886-2400. My email is danielle@obermanlaw.com. And you can go on our website, too, obermanlaw.com for information. There’s some blog posts and lots of information about the practice on there. And, yeah, reach out. Give us a call. We’ll help you. The other key to a smooth transition is not waiting until the last minute to plan for it.

Stuart Oberman: [00:15:11] Well, that never happens either, huh? Well, I know you’re a regular contributor to the firm’s newsletter, Advisor Insights. Great information coming in there. And I know in a previous podcasts, you had a great, great information on tax. I know you got some other podcasts that you’ll be on the air for. Amazing. Danielle, thank you. Thank you so much.

Stuart Oberman: [00:15:36] Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for joining us on Dental Law Radio. If you have any questions, please feel free to give us a call, 770-886-2400. And email me directly, stuart@obermanlaw.com.

Stuart Oberman: [00:15:49] Guys, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very, very much. Danielle, thank you again. Amazing job as always. We rely on you a lot on the acquisition, and tax side, and general guidance on compliance. So, thanks everyone and have a great day.

 

 

About Dental Law Radio

Hosted by Stuart Oberman, a nationally recognized authority in dental law, Dental Law Radio covers legal, business, and other operating issues and topics of vital concern to dentists and dental practice owners. The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

Stuart Oberman, Oberman Law Firm

Stuart Oberman
Stuart Oberman, host of “Dental Law Radio”

Stuart Oberman is the founder and President of Oberman Law Firm. Mr. Oberman graduated from Urbana University and received his law degree from John Marshall Law School. Mr. Oberman has been practicing law for over 25 years, and before going into private practice, Mr. Oberman was in-house counsel for a Fortune 500 Company. Mr. Oberman is widely regarded as the go-to attorney in the area of Dental Law, which includes DSO formation, corporate business structures, mergers and acquisitions, regulatory compliance, advertising regulations, HIPAA, Compliance, and employment law regulations that affect dental practices.

In addition, Mr. Oberman’s expertise in the health care industry includes advising clients in the complex regulatory landscape as it relates to telehealth and telemedicine, including compliance of corporate structures, third-party reimbursement, contract negotiations, technology, health care fraud and abuse law (Anti-Kickback Statute and the State Law), professional liability risk management, federal and state regulations.

As the long-term care industry evolves, Mr. Oberman has the knowledge and experience to guide clients in the long-term care sector with respect to corporate and regulatory matters, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities (CCRCs). In addition, Mr. Oberman’s practice also focuses on health care facility acquisitions and other changes of ownership, as well as related licensure and Medicare/Medicaid certification matters, CCRC registrations, long-term care/skilled nursing facility management, operating agreements, assisted living licensure matters, and health care joint ventures.

In addition to his expertise in the health care industry, Mr. Oberman has a nationwide practice that focuses on all facets of contractual disputes, including corporate governance, fiduciary duty, trade secrets, unfair competition, covenants not to compete, trademark and copyright infringement, fraud, and deceptive trade practices, and other business-related matters. Mr. Oberman also represents clients throughout the United States in a wide range of practice areas, including mergers & acquisitions, partnership agreements, commercial real estate, entity formation, employment law, commercial leasing, intellectual property, and HIPAA/OSHA compliance.

Mr. Oberman is a national lecturer and has published articles in the U.S. and Canada.

LinkedIn

Oberman Law Firm

Oberman Law Firm has a long history of civic service, noted national, regional, and local clients, and stands among the Southeast’s eminent and fast-growing full-service law firms. Oberman Law Firm’s areas of practice include Business Planning, Commercial & Technology Transactions, Corporate, Employment & Labor, Estate Planning, Health Care, Intellectual Property, Litigation, Privacy & Data Security, and Real Estate.

By meeting their client’s goals and becoming a trusted partner and advocate for our clients, their attorneys are recognized as legal go-getters who provide value-added service. Their attorneys understand that in a rapidly changing legal market, clients have new expectations, constantly evolving choices, and operate in an environment of heightened reputational and commercial risk.

Oberman Law Firm’s strength is its ability to solve complex legal problems by collaborating across borders and practice areas.

Connect with Oberman Law Firm:

Company website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Tagged With: Danielle McBride, Dental Practice, dental practice management, dental practices, DSO, due diligence, Oberman Law Firm, selling a dental practice, Stuart Oberman

Decision Vision Episode 150: Should I Pivot? – An Interview with Jocelyn Brady, Brain Coach

January 6, 2022 by John Ray

Jocelyn Brady
Decision Vision
Decision Vision Episode 150: Should I Pivot? - An Interview with Jocelyn Brady, Brain Coach
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Jocelyn Brady

Decision Vision Episode 150:  Should I Pivot? – An Interview with Jocelyn Brady, Brain Coach

When Jocelyn Brady began to be bored and even resented the projects she was working on in her business, she recognized an itch she needed to investigate. Then came the pandemic, which caused its own disruption, and Jocelyn pivoted away from writing and content creation to working as a Brain Coach. In this conversation with host Mike Blake, Jocelyn describes what it is like to have a successful company and yet be unfulfilled, the impact of Covid on her trajectory, her mixed feelings about the word “coach,” and much more. Decision Vision is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Jocelyn Brady, Brain Coach, Speaker & Chief Play Scientist

Jocelyn Brady, Brain Coach, Speaker & Chief Play Scientist

Jocelyn Brady is a writer, speaker, and professional brain jostler who thrives at the intersection of comedy, storytelling and unraveling the mysteries of the human brain. When she’s not being the Bill Nye of the brain (as the creator and host of her series Tiny Tips, the Internet’s favorite way to Brain), Jocelyn applies her certified Brain Coaching chops to help creative visionaries tap their brains’ greatest potential.

In her past life—as an award-winning copywriter, Creative Director, and agency CEO—Jocelyn led narrative strategy and international storytelling training for some of the world’s biggest brands. She also produced and co-hosted Party Time, a standup comedy and storytelling show featuring talent who went on to write or perform for Conan, Colbert, and Comedy Central. All while managing to keep her two cats and houseplants alive.

Jocelyn’s first book, tentatively titled Your Brain is a Magical Asshat, is slated for publication next year.

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter | Tiny Tips Series

Mike Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Mike Blake, Host of the “Decision Vision” podcast series

Michael Blake is the host of the Decision Vision podcast series and a Director of Brady Ware & Company. Mike specializes in the valuation of intellectual property-driven firms, such as software firms, aerospace firms, and professional services firms, most frequently in the capacity as a transaction advisor, helping clients obtain great outcomes from complex transaction opportunities. He is also a specialist in the appraisal of intellectual properties as stand-alone assets, such as software, trade secrets, and patents.

Mike has been a full-time business appraiser for 13 years with public accounting firms, boutique business appraisal firms, and an owner of his own firm. Prior to that, he spent 8 years in venture capital and investment banking, including transactions in the U.S., Israel, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.

LinkedIn | Facebook | Twitter | Instagram

Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm which helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality. Brady Ware services clients nationally from its offices in Alpharetta, GA; Columbus and Dayton, OH; and Richmond, IN. The firm is growth-minded, committed to the regions in which they operate, and most importantly, they make significant investments in their people and service offerings to meet the changing financial needs of those they are privileged to serve. The firm is dedicated to providing results that make a difference for its clients.

Decision Vision Podcast Series

Decision Vision is a podcast covering topics and issues facing small business owners and connecting them with solutions from leading experts. This series is presented by Brady Ware & Company. If you are a decision-maker for a small business, we’d love to hear from you. Contact us at decisionvision@bradyware.com and make sure to listen to every Thursday to the Decision Vision podcast.

Past episodes of Decision Vision can be found at decisionvisionpodcast.com. Decision Vision is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

Connect with Brady Ware & Company:

Website | LinkedIn | Facebook | Twitter | Instagram

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: [00:00:02] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions. Brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:22] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners’ or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:42] My name is Mike Blake, and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia. My practice specializes in providing fact-based strategic and risk management advice to clients that are buying, selling, or growing the value of companies and their intellectual property. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast, which is being recorded in Atlanta per social distancing protocols.

Mike Blake: [00:01:08] If you would like to engage with me on social media with my Chart of the Day and other content, I’m on LinkedIn as myself and @unblakeable on Facebook, Twitter, Clubhouse, and Instagram. I also recently launched a new LinkedIn Group called A Group That Doesn’t Suck, so please join that as well if you would like to engage. If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator, and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:32] Today’s topic is, Should I pivot? And we’ve done this topic before, probably about a-year-and-a-half ago. But as you know, if you’ve been a long time listener, I don’t mind revisiting a topic every once in a while, because certain topics, I think, just lend themselves well to different angles, different approaches. And something like a pivot, also, in my experience is a deeply personal experience. And so, everybody is going to come to a pivot, is going to experience a pivot, is going to engage with it, embrace it or not in their own unique way. And so, it’s one of those kind of evergreen topics that I don’t think we’ll ever get to a point where nobody ever pivots anymore.

Mike Blake: [00:02:17] And, also, frankly, from a very practical perspective, now that we’re recording podcast 140 something or whatever, like 148, I guess, or 149, the reality is that most people don’t go back and listen to a lot of the back catalog. We’re not Led Zeppelin. People aren’t going back to the initial records and trying to find the original recording. So, if you’re like most people and you’re relatively new to the podcast, statistically speaking, this will be a topic that we actually haven’t covered before. And if you want to hear more about it, then you can go back into the deep tracks in the archives somewhere around the double digit episodes. So, I hope you’re going to find this topic and this conversation as engaging as I anticipate that it will be.

Mike Blake: [00:03:02] You know, pivots are interesting because there are some very famous ones I don’t think people necessarily realized. Cornelius Vanderbilt – yes, that Vanderbilt family – initially started out with steamships. He actually started out with river barges around the island of Manhattan, and they are basically providing cut rate ferry service across the Hudson and East Rivers. And in doing so, got a lot of people killed because they used rickety boats. But that’s how they charge less for what they did. They eventually did pivot into steamships, which presumably were safer. I don’t know. I don’t have any data on that. And then, eventually railroads.

Mike Blake: [00:03:45] William Wrigley, whom you may know from Wrigley’s Gum – I don’t chew gum because it rip out all my dental work. But for those of you who do have good teeth, you may know of Wrigley – they originally were a baking powder company. Twitter, of all things, launched as a podcast directory. Yelp began as an automated email service. And YouTube, believe it or not, was once a dating site. So, we have Tinder now and we have all the others, but YouTube actually was not the YouTube that we know of today.

Mike Blake: [00:04:13] And, you know, I find it also an interesting topic because I find myself at odds intellectually with the investment community on one particular topic, and that is, Should you bet the jockey or the horse? And what that means to those of you who aren’t necessarily speaking Silicon Valley, it means that do you place the bet on the management of a startup or do you place your bet on the basic idea of the startup? And most investors will tell you that they bet the jockey, they bet the management team, over the actual idea figuring that a management team will actually figure it out.

Mike Blake: [00:04:55] The data – and this is empirically studied. This is actually a fairly old study, but still very good. It was published in the Journal of Finance back in 2011 – called it Do You Bet the Jockey or the Horse? And the empirical study determined that, in fact, the companies that generated the most value in their IPOs were the ones that had kept the fundamental idea, more or less start to finish, but actually had switched management teams.

Mike Blake: [00:05:21] And the reason behind that, I think, is that – again, probably torching this analogy beyond where it needs to go – if you have a slow horse, the best jockey in the world is not going to win the race of the slow horse. They may prevent you from coming in last. They may prevent you from having the horse fall over, break its leg, and you have to shoot it right down the track. But even a great management team can’t take a slow horse and win the Kentucky Derby. However, if you have the fastest horse, an average jockey might win that race because you actually have the fastest horse.

Mike Blake: [00:05:54] So, I think that there’s something to that. So, finding the right idea, finding the right business model, this highlights how important that is. Because if you don’t have the right business, you don’t have the right model – and the data says this. It’s not just Mike Blake talking into a microphone on the internet – the data suggests that there’s only so far a mediocre business concept will take you.

Mike Blake: [00:06:20] And I don’t care if you’re going to have the best management team in the world, and you can dig up Jack Welch and Steve Jobs and everybody else that you might have idolized, Warren Buffett, you’re only going to take that so far. And I guess that’s why I find pivots so interesting, because a pivot is truly an existential decision. I think it is one of the most important decisions that are made in business and probably one that is not as appreciated as much as it should be.

Mike Blake: [00:06:49] So, fortunately, coming on to join us somebody who is either sort of at the later stages or fresh off a pivot, she’ll tell us exactly where she is on it. But joining us is Jocelyn Brady, who is the Creative Brain Jostler and Brainutainer. She is a writer, speaker, and professional brain jostler who thrives at the intersection of comedy storytelling and unraveling the mysteries of the human brain. When she’s not being the Bill Nye of the brain as the creator and a host of her series, Tiny Tips, The Internet’s Favorite Way to Brain, Jocelyn applies her certified brain coaching chops to help creative visionaries tap their brain’s greatest potential.

Mike Blake: [00:07:30] In her past life as an award-winning copywriter, creative director and agency CEO, Jocelyn led narrative strategy and international storytelling training for some of the world’s biggest brands. She also produced and co-hosted Party Time, a stand-up comedy and storytelling show featuring talent who went on to write or perform for Conan O’Brien, Stephen Colbert, and Comedy Central. All while managing to keep her two cats and houseplants alive. And I have seen at least one of the cats and one of the plants, so we do have proof of life for at least one of each. Jocelyn Brady, welcome to the program.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:08:03] Thank you so much.

Mike Blake: [00:08:05] Oh, and before you jump in, I forgot to mention and this is really important, because you’re doing something that I’m struggling to do myself. Jocelyn’s first book tentatively titled, Your Brain is a Magical Ass Hat, is slated for publication next year. Jocelyn, again, welcome to the program and congratulations on writing a book. I’m struggling to do that, but it’s hard to do that in crayon.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:08:28] Oh, man. It’s hard to even think about or talk about writing a book, let alone actually doing it. But, yeah, I highly recommend joining other people coaching program or other people who are doing it. Just like getting some of that accountability, that’s the biggest thing is just creating that structure. Stick with it.

Mike Blake: [00:08:48] So, we have you here to talk about pivots. And as I like to do on the show, just in case somebody was listening who really doesn’t know what a pivot is, when you hear the term pivot, what does that mean to you?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:09:01] I imagine the basketball move like, “Okay. We were going to go this way and now we go this way.” I know nothing about basketball, but people do pivot.

Mike Blake: [00:09:11] They’re doing great. Yeah.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:09:14] Yeah. It’s just changing course, right? Deciding to move in a new direction, and it could be sudden.

Mike Blake: [00:09:20] So, what did your company originally set out to do?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:09:24] Well, when I started in 2008, all I wanted to do was make a living writing. And, you know, it was literally starting with can I earn enough to eat a sandwich today? And then, it started just growing really quickly. I didn’t have any business experiences in my 20s. I didn’t have a plan. I just thought, “I’m good at writing. I’ll figure it out.” And I got into copywriting. And one thing led to another. More clients were coming my way. I accidentally had more work than I could handle, so I hired a team.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:10:02] So, a team of writers and that grew into, not just content development or copywriting, but also then developing the brand voices and narrative strategy. And overseeing their most important projects, like what is the CEO saying in their annual meeting to shareholders? Or, what are you putting in your video scripts? And even overseeing a Super Bowl ad for a big company. And so, we were developing that tone of voice and then training the teams on how to be better storytellers. And like I said, it didn’t really set out with any grand plan or dream or vision. It was just, I just want to make a living writing.

Mike Blake: [00:10:42] And sandwiches. You wanted sandwiches.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:10:45] I wanted sandwiches to feed myself, I guess.

Mike Blake: [00:10:48] Yeah. And your cats wanted kibbles or Fancy Feast, whatever you feed them. We feed our children, it seems to keep them happy. So, you started this thing and it sounds like it was pretty successful. If anything, maybe so successful that in itself provided a challenge. What were some signs that things in this company weren’t meeting your expectations?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:11:15] I started to get bored. I started to almost resent the projects that were coming in. And I knew that’s not a good place to be. You don’t want to resent work coming in or pass that along to the clients themselves. It’s just a horrible way to approach something and to work with people. So, I think it was just the itch, like it’s not fulfilling. And a lot of times when you start something, you grow up or you excel, and you become now a manager of people, and you’re doing less of the thing that you started doing.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:11:53] It’s like a story as old as time in any company or large corporations, especially. You’re really good at a skill and then you get promoted and you’re like, “Wait a minute. Now, I’m just doing completely different things.” Making sure the business is functioning, and that we have good cash flow, and are the people doing their jobs, and how do we manage when people are out or leave or get vengeful or nobody’s gotten vegetable. You got to prepare for all the scenarios. So, I think that was the main thing is just feeling misaligned with what I was doing.

Mike Blake: [00:12:28] You know, it’s interesting you bring that up, because I think that one of the most underappreciated differentiators of a Bill Gates, of a Sarah Blakely, of a Steve Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg is that, in addition to all the things that people know they brought to the table, their innovation, their energy, their messaging, and so forth, their vision, but also the skillset and the desire to run and thrive in a startup as well as in a Fortune 100 company. That is not easy to do because you’re not just scaling a person, you have to scale yourself.

Mike Blake: [00:13:15] And not to go all self-help guru here because I’m not it, but not many people can make that journey or want to make that journey. Because, when you’re running Apple, it’s not the same thing as writing code, and being in there, and designing the products and everything. Which I suspect was probably the case with Steve Wozniak why he sort of took a less prominent ride. I don’t know, Stevie. I call him Stevie. He calls me who the hell are you? But I suspect that’s kind of what happened, you know, listening to his interviews, reading what he writes, he would not have had any fun and probably not a lot of success running that kind of company.

Mike Blake: [00:13:54] And it sounds like a little bit of that may apply to you, too, that you started to get far away from what you were doing because of the way the company is growing and somebody had to run it.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:14:03] Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, there’s still things that I did love. So, the more I was doing the workshops, I realized that I really loved interacting with people, coming up with ideas on the fly, helping people pull out the creative ideas, and just that live interaction. And you never know really what’s going to happen.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:14:29] And I still love writing, obviously. I’m working on a book and I’m also working on a really big network project. But I take those few and far between because now I realize, if I’m working on a project or I’m outsourcing my writing skills, I have to absolutely love this project. That became very clear. And on the other side of that is, I love spending my time just working directly with people and things where you’re not sitting alone banging your head against the wall going, “Oh, help. Just be here writing.” So, even when we had a pretty significant team, everybody was working remotely. We rarely got together, so it can be lonely even as part of a team.

Mike Blake: [00:15:11] I would argue sometimes it’s lonelier, because, to me, one of the biggest challenges of leadership is to sort of get out there and put a smile on your face when it’s the last thing that you want to do. And when you’re responsible for the care and feeding of a team that has entrusted you to become the platform of their careers and, in some cases, their life satisfaction, that is a very lonely place to be.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:15:41] Yeah. And it could be really scary. And it’s really helpful to connect with other entrepreneurs and people running businesses because you just simply can’t relate to what it’s like, to feel responsible for, not just yourself, but all the other people who are looking up to you like, “What’s happening next?”

Jocelyn Brady: [00:16:03] And let alone – I’m sure we’ll get more into this – COVID, as for many of us, was like, “Oh, everybody is going to hell.” And that’s when all my big contracts vanished. So, the ones I didn’t want were no longer a problem. But it was terrifying because I now had to let my team go. I had to tell them, you know, “There’s no more work. And I would love to keep you around, but I can’t pay you.”

Mike Blake: [00:16:33] I’ve never had to let a whole team go, but I have let people go in my career. But I got to imagine that conversation or series of conversations – I don’t know whether you did it in a group or you did it individually. I’m sure you didn’t do it like that button CEO did it over Zoom and calling people thieves on the way out. I’m sure you didn’t do it that way – that’s got to be the hardest conversation, one of the top five you’ll ever have in your life.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:17:07] Yeah. It’s like a divorce, right? It’s just not working out between us. There’s a lot of emotion. And I got to say, with my longtime assistant, she was five or six years this one, and I absolutely loved her and I knew that she wanted to get more into filmmaking. She’d been doing, but she really wanted to move to L.A. and try it for real. And I really wanted for her to do that. So, when this came around, I think for both of us, it was like the best breakup I could ever imagine because it was sad and we were really emotional, but also really glad for each other. She decided to go to L.A.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:17:52] She just got a role – I think I’m allowed to talk about it now – Haley Joel Osment is in it, James Franco – wait. Sorry. The other Franco directed it, Alison Brie. So, anyway, I couldn’t imagine a better outcome. And I think when you have people’s best interest in mind and you’ll be as vulnerable as you can and say what’s really happening, that’s really, really scary and can be really hard to do. And I think it takes a lot of practice. I don’t think a lot of us are well-versed or trained to do that.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:18:27] Especially in a business setting, there’s this idea you need to be professional and you can’t say emotional things. But, to me, that is crucial and really important for human development, relationships, behavior, all of it.

Mike Blake: [00:18:45] Yeah. And I think it’s rapidly becoming best practices too. You know, the world has changed, obviously. It’s an open question to what extent we’ll go back to in 2019. It’s not going to be 100 percent, I think we all know that.

Mike Blake: [00:19:02] So, your pivot story, it sounds like that COVID accelerated a pivot that might have happened anyway because you really weren’t loving what you were doing. Is that fair?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:19:13] Yeah. Exactly. It had been on my mind for a year and I’d been talking to my team about making transitions. And, yeah, that came along and I was like, “Well, I guess decision made. You’re doing it now.”

Mike Blake: [00:19:28] So, COVID happens. You let your team go. What do you do the next day?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:19:38] Cry a lot, you know, mixed feelings. I was really excited about a new direction, but also terrified. And it’s so difficult to have built something up and then it’s completely gone, in a sense, where it’s starting over. It’s just me again. I have nothing. I have enough to sort of buy a few months, thankfully. But other than that, it’s like, “What am I doing?”

Jocelyn Brady: [00:20:10] And that’s not entirely true, because I did have the four years prior or 2016 or 2017, I got certified as a brain coach. But it’s something I sort of kept secret, because as someone who works with words, I couldn’t wrap my head around how to love the word coach. I hated it. I hate the word coach. The baggage I feel it comes with, it seems so phony. I just had all these unhealthy attachments to the meaning of the word, the meaning I was making.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:20:37] And at the same time, I was still doing it, still coaching people in private for four years. It was just now I got to, “If you really want to be doing this, own it. If you really want to be speaking, tell people you are a speaker. Go out there and speak. Go do the thing. You’ve got nothing to lose now. You got everything to gain.” Because, otherwise, we’ll just be moving with the cats into the crawl space and hope the new landlord doesn’t know or the owner doesn’t know.

Mike Blake: [00:21:10] So, I’m going to ask you sort of a semi-unfair question, but I feel like I want to ask it anyway. COVID gave you kind of the jolt, if you will, sort of forced the pivot on you. Do you think if the pandemic hadn’t happened, you would have made a pivot like this anyway?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:21:29] I’d like to think so. I think eventually I would have. Definitely, I do know that once I decide I’m doing something with full conviction, I’ll do it. But I definitely think it would have taken me longer. I would have had feelings about not wanting to let my team go. And so, if they don’t want to come with me on the new ride, then that would have been the end of that anyway. So, yeah, it’s always hard to say. And you never know what you’re like until really confronted with the situation.

Mike Blake: [00:22:07] That’s true. That’s entirely fair. So, I have to get back to something because I do think it’s a polarizing word, and that is the word coach. And I’d love to hear your perspective on it. My view of the word has changed over the years, but I don’t want to suck all the air out of the room. Tell me why you have such a negative relationship with that word.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:22:36] I think I did not have a lot of exposure to coaches or to good coaches in business, life coaching, whatever the case. Not counting basketball coaches, which, as we’ve established, I know nothing about. But when it comes to that mindset, and direction, achieving goals and that sort of thing – I don’t necessarily want to badmouth some of the big hitters that we see. But it’s easy. It’s easy to shoot arrows at the people standing out in front – I just did not like what I saw. I did not like this feeling that you have to look a certain way, you have to look kind of polished and perfect, and you have to come across it’s always positive and optimistic. And there’s a ton of value in that.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:23:25] But let’s get real. Sometimes life sucks and that’s okay. Let’s deal with the full spectrum of the human experience. And it just felt like there’s a lot of charade out there, and a veneer, and just not authentic sales driven behavior at the expense, a lot of the time, of people’s real mental health that can be damaged in the process.

Mike Blake: [00:23:55] I think there’s something to that. So, we’re segueing into kind of the different part of the conversation, which is fine. But I think in fairness, when I first started running across coaches – I’m a little bit older than you are – I started running across coaches about 15,20 years ago. I didn’t find very many of them to be particularly impressive. I didn’t find many of them to be people like saying, “Oh. Well, this person is worth paying 200 bucks an hour instead of the people who I do respect and are giving me lots of awesome advice for free.” I didn’t see a lot of that.

Mike Blake: [00:24:32] And I do think that there still remain coaches that, you know, sort of come from the school of those who can’t do teach. And we’ve actually had a podcast and I had my professional coach on, and we went through some of that – and maybe I’ll revisit that topic as well. But I don’t think that you’re being unfair. I mean, coaching is largely unregulated. The certifications are very disparate. You know, what does one mean versus another? How meaningful are they at all, et cetera? And, candidly, the quality of coaches is quite variable.

Mike Blake: [00:25:15] So, I don’t think you’re necessarily painting them with a broad brush. I think just the reality of life is that, if you see a pattern over and over and over again, that’s going to be the pattern that is associated with you. At some point stereotypes do come from someplace. They weren’t just made up. They occurred because enough people observed enough behaviors that they start to become an easy way to characterize people rightly or wrongly.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:25:46] Yeah. And I think we haven’t seen or been exposed to it’s like a self-fulfilling prophecy to you think it’s going to be a certain way. And then, you just start seeing it that way and you start looking for those types of people. And that’s kind of all we saw. Like white bread coaches, it’s just sort of the same message. One might be a foot taller than the other. That’s about the only difference. They all just seemed the same.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:26:15] The big discussion that’s been coming up in the last year plus – it’s been coming up a lot longer than that – who are we representing? Who are we putting out there? The diversity and thinking backgrounds, ethnicity, behaviors, we need to see more of that. And I do see that happening, and maybe it’s because I got more into it so I started looking at who else was out there who didn’t have the huge reach and the number one spot on YouTube, et cetera.

Mike Blake: [00:26:46] And I think the numbers also support it. Putting coaching aside for a second, we both know everybody listening to this knows about the great resignation, the great job hop, whatever you want to call it. And I think money is a big, big part of that. Let’s be real, money matters. More money, you have more sandwiches you can buy, and better sandwiches like wheat bread.

Mike Blake: [00:27:16] But this is also sort of the great reckoning with authenticity. You know, being in an organization where you just don’t fit and you try to make yourself fit because you feel like you have to. And I’ve been through that scenario. It is wearing. It is draining. It beats on you constantly. And, now, that people have an opportunity where labor has leverage for the first time in our economy in a very, very long time, you’re seeing just people vote with their feet.

Mike Blake: [00:27:48] My job, for example, as an employer is not so much to give people jobs. It never was. But as much as it is to provide solutions for my clients, it’s also to provide the right platform for my people to thrive, ultimately, maybe with us, maybe someplace else. They’re not going to retire with me, statistically speaking. I know that and they know that, and that’s okay.

Mike Blake: [00:28:14] But I do think that authenticity piece is real. And I think coaching is becoming more respected because, I think, coaches are now embracing and understanding for that need for authenticity. It’s no longer about turning yourself into the template that the market wants. But, rather, understanding what your own template is and bending the rest of the world around to your will.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:28:43] Yeah. Putting yourself out. It’s the whole light attracts light thing. Just put who you really are out there and then you will attract the type of people that you will probably work well with. If you’re putting out some phony shit, it’s not going to be fruitful for anybody. It’s probably a lot more damaging.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:29:07] You know something? It really drove me nuts, too, when I was doing a lot of these storytelling workshops in particular. I would see how people in office settings where it seemed there’s so much fear-based leadership, because if the leaders themselves aren’t courageous enough to put themselves out there and to be vulnerable and to say what’s really on their minds, you have to have some filtering and compassionate communication skills are good in this.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:29:40] I was just hearing about – what is it? – radical candor and sort of some people hating on it. I was like, “Yeah.” There’s a line to walk or balance. But be you. And if you’re not happy, you need to find a way to express that. And if that can’t be resolved, you need to get out because it’s just going to cause everyone to suffer.

Mike Blake: [00:30:04] And because of that – and believe it or not, audience, this actually does relate to the actual topic – this is actually what we’re seeing is a great pivot. Lots of people are pivoting their lives because they’ve been forced to reckon with things in their lives, personal or professional or both. There’s nothing like being in lockdown with your family for a while to find out if you actually like them or not. I mean, that will send a very clear signal as to what your relationship really looks like.

Mike Blake: [00:30:36] So, I’m curious – I think you have a really interesting answer for this. No pressure – when you decide that you’re going to pivot or the pivot happened, what was the hardest thing for you to leave behind?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:30:52] The first thing that pops in my head is money. Just going ahead, a regular –

Mike Blake: [00:30:57] Money is a thing.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:30:58] The least interesting answer I can think of. It’s knowing I have reliable income. So, I empathize a lot with people who are afraid to leave a job because that’s all you know and that’s what you need. You’ve got to pay the bills. So, that’s one thing. And I think it’s also a form of your identity in a story you had about yourself and what you’re doing in the world, and what you mean to people, what you bring, what kind of value you have. And now you’re at the reckoning, you’re at ground zero, and you have to decide what of those things are still true and what do you want to be true.

Mike Blake: [00:31:37] When you pivoted, did you have any kind of template? Was there somebody that you knew that had done something similar? Or was there an example of a company, individual, or organization that made a successful pivot that made you think, “Okay. There are lessons I can take from this thing.” Or, maybe mentors that helped you along the way?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:31:58] So, when I was first getting up the nerve to put myself out there as brain coach speaker, I found a coach who was previously a copywriter and transitioned, made the pivot to become a creative director. And I thought she’s going to understand what it’s like, not just making a transition, but also we have very similar backgrounds, and to just understand this world. So, working with her was instrumental in just having that empathy and also a really good coach. So, that gave me even more confidence of like, “Okay. I found a good coach and it’s continuing to change my perception.” Also, now I’m putting myself out there, so this is working.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:32:52] Her name is Hilary Weiss. She comes to mind immediately. And then, as far as what I was doing exactly, I felt like it was a bit nebulous. Jeff Chrysler is one of my favorite humans. He is a writer. He started as a lawyer and then he decided to become a stand-up comedian. And then, he got into behavioral science. And he now works in a company, quite a big one that I’m losing the name of – J.P. Morgan. And so, people like that who didn’t follow a linear path. Because it’s very difficult if you don’t have a blueprint. You’ve got to make it up as you go. And it’s just nice to see other people who’ve done that.

Mike Blake: [00:33:41] Now, I asked you earlier about what you had to let go in order to pivot. I wanted to ask the flip side of that, what did you take with you? What was valuable that you made sure from your previous experience you’re going to take with you to that next journey?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:33:58] On the very tactical, level writing skills. Everybody needs them. Storytelling and writing skills, because no matter what you do, no matter where you go, you’re going to have to learn how to communicate it and tell a good story. And so, that is lifelong. And it’s always going to be a part of what I do and who I am. And I think the courage to step out into unknown places.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:34:31] I grew up on an active volcano. When I was seven, my house burned down. We were homeless. And so, I think from an early age, after my parents split, this is a very early age of learning resilience or rebuilding and having a perspective that things can disappear. Nothing will last forever. But you will be okay or you’ll be dead. And maybe you’re still okay when you’re dead. But you will figure it out.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:35:02] I love that quote by Oscar Wilde, it’s like, “All of us are in the gutter, it’s just some of us are looking up at the stars.” And I think that it’s like you still have somewhere to go and keep going in that direction. There’s no rush or race or anything. And it’s important to kind of watch your step sometimes. But I love that notion of just keep looking up at the stars.

Mike Blake: [00:35:28] So, I know my listeners are going to kill me if I don’t ask this question. Where was this volcano that you grew up on?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:35:36] Oh, yeah. The Big Island of Hawai’i. And I haven’t been back since 2018. There was another eruption that displaced my dad again, so he moved to Maui to a town called Haiku, which is great because he’s been writing haiku for longer than I’ve been alive. Yeah, that’s my upbringing.

Mike Blake: [00:35:56] Okay. Interesting. We sort of forget that Hawai’i basically is a chain of volcanoes.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:36:03] Yeah. There’s five on the Big Island alone. And then, you know, I just read they discovered a new one they hadn’t known about before further up in the atoll. I forgot, it’s like three quarters of the size of the Big Island. That’s one volcano. It’s the most massive volcano they’ve ever discovered on Earth. It’s long dead, but they’ve just found it under the sea.

Mike Blake: [00:36:25] I was going to ask, it’s probably not above water. It must still be below sea level then.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:36:28] It’s an ancient fossil volcano.

Mike Blake: [00:36:35] I mean, do you consider yourself having pivoted or are you still in the process of doing that?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:36:45] That’s a great question. I think my answer is yes. Because I think there’s a part of me that wanted to erase and eliminate everything that came before. And it’s like I’m never touching words or writing or doing outsourcing. And then, this project came along. It’s actually currently writing about a women’s sports team. I don’t want to say too much. So, I said yes to it because I couldn’t not say no. It was too cool. It was too exciting. And I knew I would do a good job at it.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:37:25] So, while I said I’m never taking on another writing project, this came in. I think you’re always in motion. So, the pivot could be kind of like you go back over here for a bit. And you look over here and it’s a new direction, but there’s some things that I’ll still take with me.

Mike Blake: [00:37:46] Are there new skills that you’ve had to learn maybe that you weren’t expecting or maybe you didn’t expect to have to study so much in order to make this pivot to where you’re going now?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:37:56] Oh, man. Marketing yourself. I used to just be the person telling other people what to do. And, now, I’m going to put my own face out there. I think you may have found me from the Tiny Tips video. I think that might have been something on LinkedIn. So, I started figuring it out. Like, “All right. Well, no one’s going to know what you do if you don’t tell them. Hello? So, put yourself out there.” And that’s been a learning curve.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:38:25] And, really, it’s more time consuming than I thought it might be. Let alone, as you know, creating a podcast or video, and just the editing, and the production. And there’s a lot more involved than I think you might imagine at first. It’s not just make this cool little thing and put it out there. No. Being more strategic and thoughtful about the kinds of stuff I’m putting out there and when.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:38:48] So, I’m actually working on a full content plan, which it’s just hilarious to me that I did not do that for myself, but I spent, like, 13 years doing that or helping other people do that. So, I think it’s applying stuff that you might know, but now you have to do it to yourself if you’re in that position of marketing yourself.

Mike Blake: [00:39:07] We’re talking with Jocelyn Brady, Creative Brain Jostler and Brainutainer. And the topic is, Should I pivot? You know, that’s really interesting. I think a lot of us, as we kind of move along in life in our professional lives, particularly if we ever strike out on our own, we do confront the fact that we’re going to find out if everything we’ve been telling other people to do actually works.

Mike Blake: [00:39:39] I have my own single shingle for about three years or so. And that was the narrative I basically told people, “How is it?” And what we’re going to find out, if any of the advice I’ve been giving people the last ten years or so is any good at all, right? And, fortunately, it turned out that it was reasonable. But to be perfectly candid, it was a little disconcerting to sort of confront that because I did sort of internalize, rightly or wrongly, this is not just about me, but this is actually about how I have held myself out as an adviser to other people and still doing that.

Mike Blake: [00:40:18] And if I can’t even make a go of a sole practitioner, then I’m really going to have to take a step back and reevaluate myself. Probably go get a PhD and Old Norse or something and just make a living out of reading Viking sagas or something. That was sort of the fallback plan B. My wife was happy I didn’t go there. So, I can totally see how it’s jarring when, all of a sudden, you’re looking around, “Who am I going to tell to do this? Oh, nobody. It’s me.”

Jocelyn Brady: [00:40:48] Yeah. Yeah. “Oh, God. Is my advice to myself good? Can I live up to my own standards?”

Mike Blake: [00:40:58] So, where is the business? How would you characterize the business now? Tell our listeners about exactly kind of what you do and why you love it. And has it been a good move for you since you did it?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:41:15] Yeah. So, I started with just stepping into one-on-one brain coaching, and putting myself out there for that and seeing how I could make that work. And it worked. And it’s not that I couldn’t believe it, it was just like, “Wow. Fast.” And the reason I love that is – what I like to say is – helping you create what you most want before you die. No big deal. So that, to me, I couldn’t think of anything cooler than helping people create that thing, whatever it is to them.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:41:51] Some people, it’s one person always wanted to start an art gallery, and she did that. One person who wanted to write a children’s book, and she did that. Another person wanted to quit his job, make a pivot into a totally new career and make six figures, so he did that. And it spans the gamut from really personal, sometimes it’s more nebulous. Like, “I just want to have more fun in my life and have a better relationship with my kids, because my business is going really well.” And then, it’s the flip side of, “I’m just starting my business and I want to figure it out and make it work.” That is extremely fulfilling.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:42:32] And then, in the next year, I’m going harder on really speaking in workshops. So, back to doing some more workshops again – I love them – around storytelling, but also around perspective and communication skills and play creativity.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:42:52] And I picked up some speaking gigs this year. I got to speak at the 3 Percent Conference, and – oh, man – it’s so much fun. Basically, it’s a show up and talk story, and sometimes interactive, sometimes more interactive than others. And it’s like going out and being a stand-up comedian without having to put on all the work. Or you don’t have to go to the open mics every single night and no one expects you to be funny. It’s great.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:43:19] As you read in my intro, I absolutely love stand-up comedians. I hosted them. I never did it myself, but they have the most amazing work ethic and are just incredible students and minds. And so, I feel if I can tap some of that in some of the work that I do that I’m also really fulfilled with that.

Mike Blake: [00:43:42] You could do stand-up comedy, I think.

Jocelyn Brady: [00:43:45] You know, I was thinking about if open mics are a regular thing for a while, I might go check them out. I think it’s really good to put in the reps and to feel. A friend of mine actually just challenged me last week. He said, “I will go do another stand-up set if you do it.” And I was like, “Okay. I’m ready to go flail around.”

Mike Blake: [00:44:09] Jocelyn, we’re sort of running out of time here. I want to be respectful of your time. There are probably topics that we might have covered that our listeners wish we would have done so, but didn’t. Or maybe they would have liked us to go deeper on something that we did talk about. If somebody wants to follow up with you for more information, can they do so? And if so, what’s the best way to do that?

Jocelyn Brady: [00:44:31] Yeah. jocelynbrady.com. jocelthem, J-O-C-E-L-T-H-E-M, like them, not you, not us, on Instagram and YouTube. Also, what else do I got for you? LinkedIn, Jocelyn Brady.

Mike Blake: [00:44:48] Well, that’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Jocelyn Brady so much for sharing her expertise with us.

Mike Blake: [00:44:54] We’ll be exploring a new topic each week, so please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next business decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us that we can help them. If you would like to engage with me on social media with my Chart of the Day and other content, I’m on LinkedIn as myself and @unblakeable on Facebook, Twitter, Clubhouse, and Instagram. Also, check out my new LinkedIn Group called A Group That Doesn’t Suck. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

 

 

Tagged With: Brady Ware & Company, Brain Coach, career pivot, career strategy, coaching industry, Decision Vision, Jocelyn Brady, Mike Blake, pivoting your business, Scribe Story Studios, storytelling

The R3 Continuum Playbook: Employee Wellbeing in 2021 and What to Expect in 2022

January 6, 2022 by John Ray

Employee wellbeing
Minneapolis St. Paul Studio
The R3 Continuum Playbook: Employee Wellbeing in 2021 and What to Expect in 2022
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Employee wellbeing

The R3 Continuum Playbook: Employee Wellbeing in 2021 and What to Expect in 2022

In this excerpt from a webinar conducted in December 2021, Dr. George Vergolias, Medical Director at R3 Continuum, covered issues and pain points of employee wellbeing in 2021 and looked ahead at workplace trends to expect in 2022. He discussed the disruptive factor of hybrid work and how it will evolve, the challenges of staffing and labor, the growing disconnect between leadership and employees, the toll of virtual work and how it may impact creativity, and much more. The R3 Continuum Playbook is presented by R3 Continuum and is produced by the Minneapolis-St.Paul Studio of Business RadioX®. R3 Continuum is the underwriter of Workplace MVP, the show which celebrates heroes in the workplace.

Other R3 Continuum webinars can be found here.

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: [00:00:00] Broadcasting from the Business RadioX studios, here is your R3 Continuum Playbook. Brought to you by Workplace MVP sponsor, R3 Continuum, a global leader in workplace behavioral health, crisis and security solutions.

Shane McNally: [00:00:14] Hi, there. My name is Shane McNally, Marketing Specialist for R3 Continuum. As 2022 begins, it’s important to look ahead and recognize the trends that may be seen throughout the year regarding employee wellbeing. This information is provided by Dr. George Vergolias, Medical Director at R3 Continuum. Reflecting on 2021, there has been a shift between different priorities, work environments, mental health and overall wellbeing importance and more. Dr. George Vergolias is going to dive in and offer eight things that he foresees will be trending in 2022. This information is gathered from various reports and trends we’ve seen in years past.

Shane McNally: [00:00:50] Dr. George Vergolias oversees and leads R3C’s clinical risk, threat of violence and workplace violence programs. He’s directly assessed or manage over 1000 cases related to threat of violence or self harm, sexual assault, stalking and communicated threats. He brings over 20 years of experience as a forensic psychologist and certified threat manager to bear in an effort to help leaders, organizations, employees and communities heal, optimize and ultimately thrive during and after disruption. Thank you for being with us, Dr. Vergolias. So, let’s start off today’s webinar by asking a question, what drives human thriving?

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:01:29] Okay. Thank you, Shane, for that warm introduction. And what’s interesting is, so you heard a little bit about my bio, forensic psychologist, I’ve done a ton of threat work, a ton of hostility management work and so on. But a big part of that is also understanding resilience and understanding the flip side of wellbeing because wellbeing, when you are functioning well emotionally, intellectually, when you’re living your best life, you’re really functioning in a way and at a level that is diametrically opposed to being violent.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:02:03] So, I’ve had to be forced to become an expert in understanding resilience and wellbeing, and what is it that allows people to pull through hard times; whereas, other people decide to go on a violent trajectory? So, my larger role is Medical Director for R3. I oversee all of our services. And a big part of that is understanding the wellbeing and resilience aspect.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:02:25] And so, back to Shane’s question, what drives human thriving? And what I want to do is I want to talk about one of my favorite stories of all time. And it’s a true story about Margaret Mead. Margaret Mead, arguably one of the best most famous anthropologists, at least in the United States. She was giving a lecture in Oxford 70 some years ago, and a student in the lecture hall had raised – I’m assuming it’s a he but these are her hand. I believe it was a young man, and he asked Margaret Mead, when does she think civilization began? What were the first signs of civilization?

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:03:01] And the students and the other faculty that were there, they expected an answer around something like the first time we carbon dated finding pottery, or weapons, or an arrowhead or some kind of structure that was built, or a vase or some kind of structure that carried water, whatever it would be. Cooking tools, eating tools, whatever it may be. And that’s not what she said at all. She said, “We know civilization began around the time that we were able to backdate, carbon back date, a broken femur bone, a human leg bone that had healed.” And a lot of people in the auditorium looked puzzled.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:03:41] And she went on to explain that in the animal kingdom, when you break your leg, you’re done. It’s game over. There’s no other animal that sits and stays with you. And if you have a broken leg, it doesn’t naturally heal on itself by the time that you either starve or you die of dehydration or some other predator takes you. But once they found that femur bone that had healed, they knew that somebody, some other creature, arguably another human, had stayed there and protected that person, and brought them sustenance, and kind of nursed them through the healing process till they at least can get up and get moving.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:04:17] So, the point is that we are best, we are most human and we are at our best when we are assisting and helping one another. And that’s what we’re going to talk about in terms of trends through 2021 and into 2022. But I want that story to anchor us.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:04:33] So, let’s first look backwards. It’s always a good time to kind of take stock and look back at the past year. What impacted employee wellbeing the most in 2021? And what we saw at the end of 2020, going into 2021, is we saw some trends that did indeed pan out. And one of them was from the Fortune Deloitte 2021 CEO Survey. This was done at the back end of 2020, looking forward into 2021. And what they found is 98% of CEOs reported that mental health was a priority for them going into this current year, 2021.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:05:10] They also find that the pandemic had significantly accelerated various types of digital transformation, most notably what we’re doing now. Quite often, even though we did webinars through telepresence before, that has markedly accelerated through the pandemic and over this past year as well. And then, the pandemic was fostering information around or formation of new partnerships, new alliances and new creative ways of doing business and working together over remote distances.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:05:43] And what we saw in this past year is many companies, not all, but many companies made good on those promises, and many CEOs made good on those promises, and we saw an acceleration of that going through the year. And that’s been largely a good thing. There have been a few things that have created some pain points, and I’m going to get at that in just a second.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:06:06] We saw a few other things. One is that COVID 19, COVID, the epidemic or pandemic, rather, it created tensions, and it tested the limits of the worker-employer relationship. And early on, we saw certain pain points around concerns of safety. Later on, we saw pain points around mask mandates. And then, we saw and are still seeing pain points around vaccination requirements, and we’re seeing different businesses handle that differently. But what that is doing is it really is testing those boundaries of where does an employer’s reach and where does their due diligence then begin in terms of creating safe environments for their workforce?

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:06:54] And from a legal perspective – and again, full disclaimer, I’m not a lawyer, I work a lot in conjunction with the legal world as a forensic psychologist – what we’re seeing is there really isn’t still any court or legal precedent around handling COVID risk as an employer, as well as COVID restrictions. So, all of this is still at play, and I think we’re all still trying to figure out what is that balance. And what makes it even more confusing is that balance is going to be different for different industries and different employers. And in some cases, across the same employer, it might be different at different locations. So, that’s one thing.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:07:34] The second thing we saw is the adoption of what I’m calling telepresence everything. So, another kind of disclaimer here, for 19 years, I’ve had a private practice that is focused on doing telemedicine for emergency departments in North Carolina. Just the practice I’ve had on the side, it keeps me vibrant, keeps me accessible and it keeps me sharp clinically. I’ve spent the last 10 years trying to get hospitals, and clinicians and outpatient clinics to adopt telepresence and telehealth. COVID changed all that almost overnight in terms of the forced and accelerated adoption of going to telehealth, and both providers and recipients – patients – being those on the receiving side, being open to it and being flexible with it, including boards, changing licensure requirements, payers and insurance, changing their payment requirements to allow this.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:08:30] And we are not going back. I’m not saying we won’t begin to go back to more clinic-based therapy in some ways, but there is a large swath of the population that has found that telepresence or telehealth has been functional, it has been helpful, it has been effective, and useful and has broken down regional barriers to proper care.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:08:52] So, we’re seeing that, but we’re also seeing, again, what we’re doing right now, and I imagine if we were in a room and I did a show of hands of how many of us have been on a Microsoft Teams or Zoom call this week for business, almost everybody would raise their hand in terms of being involved in that in the last week or two. So, we’ve seen a huge adoption of that. And I’m going to talk about the pros and cons of that as well.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:09:15] The other thing that we’ve seen is that wellbeing, although, as I said in the last slide, has been a huge initiative, there are some barriers and pain points in terms of the impact of that. What we’re seeing now based on the Harvard Business Review study that was done just a couple of months back, 89, almost 90% percent of employees are saying that their work/life balance is getting worse – I’ll talk a little bit about that in a minute – 85% are reporting well-being has worsened in general; 56% indicated that their job demands have increased since the onset of the pandemic, and particularly over the past year; and 19% of women – so, we’re seeing some specific population issues – are reporting that they felt their job was at risk. And a lot of this was particularly around many of them being in a position where they can’t stop also being kind of a primary caretaker at home. Whether they’re a single mother or even if they’re in a married relationship, some of those older traditional gender roles, none of that has stopped, while they also have an accelerated adoption of being on conference calls and continuing to have increased productivity.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:10:24] What’s really interesting is another pain point I’m going to get into. I’m just laying out the metrics. 40% – and this is at a global level – of the workforce is considering a change going in to the back end of 2021 and into 2022. A change in jobs, basically. So, talent acquisition is an issue, and I’ll be talking more about that in a second. So, as a segue, so that’s kind of the landscape that we’re now just emerging out of. 2019 or 2020 had its challenges with the onset of the COVID pandemic. 2021 was okay, we’re getting our legs under us, but still trying to figure out a lot of these issues with all their attendant pain points. Now ,the question is, what does 2022 have in store? So, these are predictions, these are speculations, but they’re based on trends and they’re based on what we kind of know in terms of not only our own experience consulting with those in the C-suite and upper management, but looking at the trends across a number of reports and where the workforce is going around issues of wellbeing and thriving.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:11:32] So, let’s start with what our leaders concerned about, because I think that’s a good barometer, at least, of understanding that at the top. In the beginning of this past year, many CEOs, many leaders, especially in the Deloitte survey, which is a kind of an industry standard, were talking about this as the year of hope. As we started entering into mid-2021 with the Delta variant beginning — well, not beginning but when it was beginning in the mid part of the year to kind of start raging and a few other supply chains still not back online, there were other pain points going on, they moved to have more bold plans about growth, innovation and digital transformation all based out of necessity. All of that was needed.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:12:16] Another big key component, there was there was a lot of initiatives around, how do we transform our talent networks? How do we recruit, and develop and train people differently? Good news is over 75% of CEOs still remain bullish on 2022. They still are looking at positive growth, they’re looking at innovation, and they’re really thinking the business community is going to continue to thrive and adapt to the changes ahead. That all is good. That’s a positive message. But we also are seeing is what we saw a year ago, mental health and wellbeing remain prominent as focused areas for leaders and CEOs in particular. So, there’s a lot of focus on that, and there’s a lot of resources and initiative being put in that direction. Again, different companies will differ on this dimension, but as a whole, there’s a big momentum in place that continues to ride us into 2022.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:13:08] Well, we’re also seeing is D&I issues. Diversity, inclusion, these are rapidly accelerating in focus. In January of 2021, so just a little under a year ago, 94% of CEOs said D&I issues and initiatives was a strategic priority. By June, by midyear, 50% were actually making good on those promises. They were prioritizing those initiatives for inclusion and talent adoption strategy or talent attraction; they were setting clear goals to measure the impact of their D&I initiatives and priorities; and they were communicating those metrics back to their employees in a way that there could be a feedback loop about what is working and what isn’t working. So, again, another positive change that we’re starting to see develop through 2021, and we’re expecting that to continue in 2022.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:14:08] And by the way, these initiatives are not just for marginalized groups. There’s a large — I don’t want to say majority, but there’s a large swath of people that are not in disenfranchised groups but strongly identifying in an ally shift way with those groups who are supporting those initiatives. And in the end, those are tending. The research is showing those are tending to make more cohesive and innovative work groups across a number of different sectors.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:14:42] So, now, what I want to do is take those high level metrics. Again, we talked about 2021, talked about 2022, and I want to go in just seven specific trends that I think we can expect going into this new year. Again, these are born out of various data points, various reports, we make reference to these in the slide if you want to go do a deeper dive. And they are a little bit — I mean, these are predictive trends. These are things that we’re looking towards based on where we’ve just come out of, but they wouldn’t be in this presentation if I didn’t feel quite confident that we’re going to see some of these or each of these in some capacity as we navigate forward.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:15:25] So, the first is that the biggest disruption that we can expect this next year is hybrid work and trying to figure out, what does that mean? What does that mean for us? What we’re seeing – now, this is based off the Microsoft Work Trends report from March, and they did a little bit of a follow-up just recently; I believe it was in November. But what they were saying is 66% of leaders of their company, they’re considering redesigning their office space for hybrid work. Almost three-quarters of employees want flexible remote work options, and over over two-thirds of employees want more in-person work or collaboration post-pandemic. So, what’s interesting — I’m sorry, employers. I mean employees want more in-person work.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:16:14] So, what do we see here? What we’re seeing is kind of a split in both directions, right? Leaders are definitely responding and trying to create workspaces that can adapt to more remote and hybrid work environments; three-quarters of workers want flexibility to work from home and from the office; and yet, two-thirds are also saying we still want that in-person engagement for collaboration post-pandemic. And again, different companies are going to adopt this at different levels based on their financial tolerance, their risk tolerance and other issues, but this is going to be a disruptive factor as we move forward, and companies are going to have to figure out a plan to navigate that in a way that works for their culture, their industry, and at some level, their bottom line as well. That all has to be factored in.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:17:05] Second big issue is talent acquisition. This is going to rapidly change. We’ve already seen it, but we’re seeing more. Questions of attracting talent, retaining talent and then developing internal talent will continue to be massively disrupted as we go forward. There’s a quote on your screen there, I’m not going to read the whole thing, but I’m going to highlight a few points, and this comes from the Deloitte — I’m sorry, the Deloitte Insights report from July. What we saw in 2020 is 80% of job losses were among the lowest quarter of wage earners, and many of them were working in the service sector. A new study shows that 100 million global low-wage workers will need to find a different occupation by 2030. That is a massive shift in the job market.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:17:50] In addition to that, we are continuing to see acceleration of robotic impact in the workforce, which disproportionately affects lower wage or labor-based type occupations or jobs. And we’re seeing that the demand for skilled workers at the same time that this is happening, skilled workers is also growing, with 7 in 10 employers globally saying they’re struggling to find workers. For any of us that are interested in selling a home, buying a home, building a home, or even just trying to get some remodeling done, we know the labor shortage in the skilled labor and construction and remodeling world. So, we’re already seeing that. So, there’s going to be massive impact.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:18:34] What’s also interesting with this is at the same time that all of these data points are happening out of necessity, you might say, and I’m not saying — what I mean by necessity is the job market is moving, so people or the labor force is moving and evolving, we also have a disproportionate number of white-collar workers. So, people with higher degrees working more white collar jobs, who are just fed up with their current arrangement of working in corporate America. They want to live remotely, they want flexible hours, they want to be their own boss. So, we’re seeing a higher proliferation of people leaving traditional jobs where they have good positions. They’ve been at a firm, a law firm or one of the big four accounting firms for a number of years and moved up, and they’ve just decided — to put it in my terms, they’re kind of done with the rat race, and they just want to get out.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:19:29] We’re also seeing younger workers from Gen Z and millennials who are developing a whole new — well, not new because these have been around for a while, but they’re developing a deeper sense of what they want out of a job. It’s no longer advancement and a good paying salary. I want to feel rewarded, I want to feel supported, I want to feel like I’m making a difference, I want to be part of a company that’s making a difference in the world. All of these are different things that are occurring that’s forcing us as business leaders and talent acquisition leaders to rethink, how do we attract, retain and develop people in our companies and in our organizations? So, it’s going to be a challenge as we navigate forward.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:20:17] So, sadly, I talked earlier about a lot of the CEOs talking about it’s the year of hope this past year and remaining bullish on 2020, and wellbeing, and D&Y, initiatives all being part of the priority. And that’s all wonderful news. There’s still a disconnect. Leaders are still generally out of touch. This is also coming from the Microsoft Trends report. It, also, is backed up by some of the findings from the Deloitte Insights report as well. But from the Microsoft report, 61% of leaders are reporting themselves as thriving and accelerating their thriving through 2021 versus only 38% of their employees are reporting that. That is a disconnect.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:21:01] Now, some of the best organizations are kind of evolving and thriving together from top to bottom, but the norm is that leaders increasingly think that they’re doing well, and thriving and growing; employees are not. And so, there is a disconnect. Unfortunately, I don’t know exactly what that disconnect is. There’s a number of factors that I think are related. The next bullet point captures one of them. We’re exhausted. When I say we, I mean the workforce in general. And it’s masked by high productivity.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:21:33] So, here’s an interesting finding we’re seeing not only at the beginning of 2021, but growing through the year, and we’re actually expecting this to continue to grow into 2022, and there’s a blessing and a curse here. 85% of employees report the same or higher productivity from the prior year. So, 2021 was just as productive or more productive than 2020, except 53% more feel overworked, and 39% more feel exhausted from the prior year. So, yes, we’re doing more, but we’re paying a high, high toll on employees’ wellbeing.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:22:13] And when you marry that or abridge that into the talent dilemma, that is a real concern. It’s a real recipe for disaster because if we have a core constituency, you might say, of the workforce that either they’re forced to move on because they’re semi-skilled role is being outsourced or not available or higher skilled workers or more educated workers are just deciding, “I’ve had it with the rat race,” and they’re feeling “I’m more productive than eve, and yet I’m more exhausted, and I’m not doing well, and I’m overworked,” that creates an environment that more people want to leave and more people want to start jumping to other opportunities around them. So, it’s going to be a really interesting year to see how we, as a business community and in roles of leadership and management, and HR, navigate that going forward.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:23:07] Another consideration is that the digital intensity of our engagement and life balance, there’s been a creep. There’s been an increased impact of that over time. So, a few bullet points there. Microsoft Teams, just the occurrence of the number of teams that the average person sits in – meaning conference call teams or meetings – is up two times than it was a year ago. The average meeting is up 10 minutes longer than it was a year ago. The average user is sending 45% more chats through Microsoft Teams.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:23:41] And the problem that — well, actually, I’m going to jump ahead real quick because there’s one more visual I want to share with you, and then I’ll get to not my final slide, but a conclusion point there. What we’re also seeing – and again, all of this is from the Microsoft Work Trend report, which is really interesting because they could call all of this anonymized data from MS teams, particularly if your organization opts in for that data sharing.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:24:07] So, meetings, weekly meeting time has more than doubled for team users and is still rising all through 2020, but also continuing to go into 2021. This trend hasn’t gone away. Again, this study was from March of 2021, but this trend continues. There’s been an increase in the number of emails delivered in February of 2021 versus February of 2020, and there’s indications that this has continued to increase. I already mentioned that 45% more chat is occurring. And this is interesting, the number of people working on office documents is up 66% over the same year.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:24:46] Now, on the one hand, if we’re all going remote, we would expect some of this to increase. And that all makes some sense because we’re not — I’m going to hop back here. Because we’re not together, we don’t have the ability to go have lunch together downstairs at the little café, or talk in the break room, or even just meet at the watercooler. Those opportunities are not there, so we have to chat more, we have to email more. And all of that makes a little bit of sense organically. Here’s the trouble is what we’re finding is we’re getting huge digital fatigue. It is just draining to feel like we are constantly on.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:25:25] What’s interesting is there was a study done, and I wish I would have added it to the slide, but I’ll just comment on it real quickly. I believe I saw it in Inc Magazine, but prior to that, I believe it was in Forbes. And what they looked at is, what is the kind of the lit reality of being in meetings in lived time, in-face, or in-person, and being on a screen? Well, the oddity is right now, of this multiple hundred, three or four hundred people watching this right now, I don’t know how many are looking at me right now. So, if I want to stop and take a glass drink of water, and I’m going to do that because I’m thirsty, it’s kind of a bit of an awkward moment, right? It’s a pause, it’s silent. Even if I’m not talking – of course, I’m presenting, so I have to be talking now – I’m not sure who’s looking at me.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:26:17] But when you’re in a room with people, and you can see that 12 other people or 15 other people are looking at the speaker, you could kind of turn off for a second. And I don’t mean you turn your attention away, but you can relax, you can scratch your nose, you can fix your hairline, you can adjust in your seat, you could quickly check a text if you are afraid your kids are texting you that they got off the bus, whatever the issue is. When we have this platform, there is this kind of subtle paranoia that forms of feeling like we always have to be on, and engaged, and focused. And it’s tremendously draining to have that. And we don’t have that in our normal face-to-face meetings because we get numerous micro breaks when we notice everyone else is focusing on the screen, or this talker, or that talker.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:27:08] So, again, that — and then, you’re in my home. So, I have to constantly worry about, are people judging my background? Is my office clean? The kids are off right now, they’re going to come in, and I’ve had to warn them not to bother me because I’m giving a presentation right now. This has an emotional and psychological drain, and it’s kind of a cognitive load over time. So, it’s something else we’re going to have to be mindful of as we go forward.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:27:35] What I’ve heard about and what we’ve implemented at R3 to some good effect is leaders, we’ve encouraged leaders to empower and encourage people to fade their background if they want. We literally have some workers that for any number of reasons, take calls from their bedroom. They don’t want you in their bedroom. Even if you went over to their house for a barbecue, they wouldn’t invite you into their bedroom. And yet you’re in their bedroom during an account meeting or a sales meeting or whatever. So, we encourage them, use the muted background, so no one can see where you are in your home or use one of the other template backgrounds.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:28:11] We also encourage people, if you need to go off camera for a little bit, go off camera. There’s no judgment there. Everyone may need to do that. If you need to mute, go ahead and do that. Because where we are in our lives, our work life and our personal life, are now a little more blended. And we have to be more mindful about where those boundaries land and empowering people to use those boundaries and set those up, so they can still promote a sense of wellbeing, and no one to emotionally and psychologically turn off. So, we want to keep that in mind as we navigate forward.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:28:49] Okay. You know what, I lied to you guys, and I didn’t mean to. There’s actually eight trends. So, let me get through those. And then, it might be a good time to pause and see if we have a few other additional questions.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:29:02] So, trend number six, collaboration and productivity, they might be harmed by shrinking social networks. The jury is a little bit out here, and we’re still trying to figure this out. So, on the one hand, we are more — I’ve already made the case, the data doesn’t lie, we are much more interactive than we’ve ever been. And that has been very, very useful in terms of — well, it’s been out of necessity, but we are communicating. We’re communicating more. We’re using more tools, chat, email, again, telepresence or teleconferencing. And in one way, that has kept us connected, which has been useful because if we didn’t have any of that in 2020 and 2021, that would have been big trouble for business productivity and innovation.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:29:50] Here’s the problem. Because of that, we are continuing to lack the lived social experience of being in presence with somebody. And I call that magic of innovation that happens when you’re interacting with somebody in a room. I had the pleasure of having a very good friend, still do, who was a really good jazz musician. He’s not famous, but he plays with a lot of famous jazz musicians. I mean, he’s just amazing in terms of his talent. And what’s funny is when COVID started, a lot of jazz musicians, among other artists, had to move into the studio, and they were doing studio work remotely. It was all digitized. The problem with jazz, just like the problem with most good music, there’s an innovative back and forth. There’s a dance, there’s a flow that people get into. And what we are finding is even on the business side, the innovative side, sales, marketing, developing new products, bringing them to the market, all of that has been stifled a bit by that lack of innovative magic of being reasonably in the presence of one another.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:31:02] So, again, don’t know what the answer is to there. Hopefully, the answer is we get a handle on things. Hopefully, Omicron isn’t — we certainly know it’s more contagious than Delta. Hopefully, it’s not as severe in its symptomatology. And hopefully, we can get a handle on it in a way that maybe we can start getting back into face-to-face interactives. Many of us, maybe all of us have been to virtual conferences in the last year, I can’t speak for everybody, but I can tell you I’ve been to some good ones, and I’ve been to many where it’s not even close to the lived experience of being in-person with somebody. So, these are things that we’re going to have to adapt to.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:31:42] Now, there’s a paradox here. And the paradox is at the same time that that has increased our interaction but decrease that kind of magical innovation that gone on and on for five minutes about that, there is at the same time what we’re seeing an increase in authentic engagement. And the authentic engagement is if we were in a conference call, some people would be asking me turning to the wrong direction about my boxing gloves. Those are my dad’s boxing gloves. He fought Golden Gloves when he was a young man in Chicago. That would never come up if we were in the office. And then, “Oh, you’re from Chicago,” or “Oh, your dad boxed. Did you learn to box?” These are little moments where we kind of — whether we mean to or not, we let people into our lives and we become a little more engaging. It’s a little more of an authentic interaction. And the paradox is we’re not doing this in person.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:32:32] So, the time we’ll be able to tell or only time can tell, I should say, of how is that going to play out. On the one hand, there’s something kind of artificial about this digital interaction. On the other hand, over time, you’re getting to see my — I mean, again, if these were regular calls, eventually you’d meet my dog. Shane has heard my dog bark so many times, he probably can recognize the bark. Shane has met my kids – he never would have probably met my kids – because they burst in when they get home from school, even though I tell them not to sometimes. That creates an authentic engagement where our humanness is shown and it comes through.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:33:13] So, it’s going to be really interesting to see how six and seven bounce off each other as we continue to navigate forward in 2022, particularly around issues of humor, and vulnerability and so on.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:33:27] All right. Number eight, and you might have already suspected this when I was talking quite a bit about the talent dilemma, but in a suddenly remote hybrid world – and when I say sudden, yes, it evolved over a year, 12 months, 18 months, but if you look at the history of any of our organizations, like go back 20, 30, 50, 60 years, some of us maybe are in organizations that go back a hundred years, you go back and look at the history of modern work since the industrial age began, 18 months is a blip. It is a blip on the map. That is a very rapid change. So, in a suddenly remote hybrid world, the talent pool is going to be global. We’re already seeing that. We already were trending that way, but now that so many of us have adapted to remote hybrid work, we’ve now eliminated that barrier.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:34:24] Now, some employers, some leaders are saying, “I want people back in the office and I want to hire people that live — I’m in Raleigh, North Carolina, so I want people that live around here, so they can come in the office.” That’s a choice. But what most organizations have, at least, been able to say or prove is that some of what we do can be not outsourced, but it can be off-sourced, it can be off the site, it could be at home, or remote or hybrid. And what that means is, now, when I’m looking for that account manager, or sales exec, or that head clinician, or that clinical program manager, I can now look in California, or Arizona, or New England. I don’t only have to look in Raleigh. So, that expands the talent pool.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:35:07] But what it also does to the talent, it means their options are expanding as well. So, if they join my group and they find after a year, “I don’t like the fit. I don’t like the mission. I don’t like the support I’m getting. I don’t like the level of development and mentoring I’m getting. I don’t like the company’s approach to D&I and inclusion-based issues or wellbeing, I now can look for a job in California, and Arizona and New England.” So, again, this is a dilemma that we all are going to have to navigate as we continue to move forward.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:35:41] Okay. All right. This might be a good time to take a quick pause. Shane, are there any questions that came through?

Shane McNally: [00:35:50] Yeah. We have one here that I think was pretty relevant. We had it in one of the first slides. So, with the move to more hybrid and work-from-home situations, do you forecast a rise in domestic violence? And what are companies doing to ensure they meet the duty of care obligations to provide a safe work environment in a remote world?

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:36:10] Wow, that is a great question. And it’s a hard one to absolutely answer, but I’m gonna do my best. And it’s one I kind of know the area of. So, we’ve already seen an uptick in domestic violence already in 2021. I would expect that to be the same, maybe a slight uptick into 2022. And some of these issues can get very complex, but just because for sake of time, I won’t go into all the variables from a risk angle, but it really comes down to when you are in an environment of hostility, where there’s an abuser and a victim, leaving for eight hours a day and separating isn’t a bad thing. The first thing most of us will do when we see a fight brewing, whether it’s at the Thanksgiving table or, unfortunately, if it’s at a Little Little League game, or if you’re a police officer responding to a situation, you separate. Leaving the house every day and going into work is, at least, a forced separation. Now, that’s all at home. That separation isn’t occurring. So, it doesn’t have to be a hotbed, but it increases the risk of flashpoints, of volatile flashpoints that can emerge into violence. So, I do think there’s a significant risk there.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:37:27] In terms of what are people doing, this is varied significantly, greatly. The best companies are really trying to do a job of reaching out, letting their employees know that they have domestic violence support resources, they’ve got mental health support resources, they have counseling, anonymous counseling resources, they have threat of violence services available to help people navigate a potentially violent or hostile situation. The best ones are doing that.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:37:57] What they’re also doing is trying to create cultures by which employees feel comfortable coming forward and sharing concerns about another employee, even if it’s anonymous, such that at least we can try to get people delivered or connected rather to the help that they may need. In terms of due diligence or duty, that gets tough now. And again, I think an employment lawyer would be better to ask in terms of where does the employer’s reach end. Yes, you’re working from home now, and yes, there is some kind of responsibility, but to what degree, as your employer, am I responsible for keeping your home environment safe? And at what point am I infringing on your personal life and your personal rights if I go too far with that?

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:38:51] I can say because I deal a lot with domestic violence, I deal a lot of threat of violence, and that intersects with legal and law enforcement, the jury is out on where those boundaries are. Again, this is a very new arena for us in terms of trying to figure out due diligence, duty to warn. And then, the question of how do courts, how does litigation in courts view that? So, it’s a really good question. I would say continue just to monitor how HR groups, security groups and certainly legal groups are talking about this issue, and particularly employment lawyers as we evolve through 2022. 2022, I think, is going to be a seminal year to determine how do we figure out or how do we manage these? And then, what are the courts say about it in terms of our responsibilities as leaders, managers and employers? Great question. Shane, do you want me to continue here, or do you want to do another question? What do you think?

Shane McNally: [00:39:48] Yeah, I think let’s keep it rolling because I think one of the questions may actually be answered in the next coming slides. So, I think let’s keep rolling with it. And if we have some more time, we’ll answer some more at the end.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:39:59] Perfect. And my goal is to get through these next slides in about eight minutes. I’m not going to do a deep dive because again, all of you are probably from different backgrounds, you might be from different industries, you might have different resources available or not available, different size organizations. So, we’re kind of hitting this with a broad brush stroke.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:40:18] So, we talked about trends, 2021 and 2022. We talked about eight specific trends, both positive things but also some pain points. So, this is where I get into, okay, what do we do about it? What do we do? How do we support mental health and wellbeing in a way that’s effective and with accessible resources. I’m going to say it again, in this next year, it’s all about people. They are our greatest asset. They certainly should be considered your greatest asset. And the CEOs in the Deloitte study, and even the Microsoft study, have both talked about that. It’s talent in every form. That is the goal. For those of us that remember, I think it was the Bill Clinton, Ross Perot, even before Ross Perot and George H. Bush, the old saying, “It’s taxes, stupid” or “It’s about taxes,” well, my mantra this year is, “It’s about the people, stupid.” Not that people are stupid, but it’s all about the people. It’s about your talent – attracting them, hiring them, developing them, retaining them and so on. It’s key.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:41:24] One thing we’re all going to have to do better is we’re going to have to expand our toolbox in terms of resources, and we’re going to have to get out of siloed thinking in terms of how we handle problems. Historically, a lot of this has been dumped on HR. Maybe some of it’s been dumped on security if it’s a threat or risk issue. And then, in some cases, it might be dumped on legal if you have a legal team internally or maybe you have an ad hoc external legal team. The problem is, is we need to expand the dilemma. Most companies, if you go back pre-COVID, they basically had a hammer in the toolbox. And if you had a nail, great; they had a hammer. And if you had a screw, they had a hammer. And if you had something else, if you needed to glue something, they had a hammer. We need to expand the toolbox in terms of the resources that we have available to us.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:42:21] Part of that process is — sorry, I missed. I didn’t forward some of the slides. That’s the CEO slide. That’s a toolbox slide. Now, I’m caught up. I’m sorry about that.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:42:32] We need to also, I believe, strongly have a conceptual shift from looking at dealing with the behaviors of concern from a perspective of adversarial and contentious to collaborative and supportive. Now, that doesn’t mean there are times that we don’t need to exit somebody from our organization. That happens. But we can do it in a way that we still are trying to maximize a supportive engagement with that person. So, we want to engage people from end to end. A lot of times, people – I do a lot of hostile terminations. I don’t personally, but I help navigate them, I should say. People ask me after the termination, when do you start mitigating a hostile termination? When does it begin? When do you really start doing it?

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:43:20] And I always say, managing a hostile termination begins the day you hire that person. I don’t care if it’s 10 years ago. The day you hire them, the way you want to award them, the way you try to be supportive, and fair and equitable, the way you engage them with respect and dignity, and how you’ve done that, whether it’s three months or three years or 30 years, sets the tone for how you’re going to deal with that when things get ugly at the back end. So, it’s an engagement process end to end. We want to educate people on that process, each step, what resources do we have available, how do we help them. We want to have a general message of support to people all through the process. And we want to align what resources we do have beyond the intervention is a singular event. View it as a process of intervening.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:44:09] Now, none of this means that if somebody does something egregious at your workplace that they don’t need to be exited. Not at all. Sometimes, people need to be exited. But can we do it in a way that maximizes support, in a way that they can look forward in their life and not look backward with a sense of anger and resentment, and in some cases, vengeance? So, that’s one of the keys.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:44:30] Again, I talked about the singular event. Get away from that and move it into an engaged process. And that process begins with the first time I sit you down and say, “I’m going to give you an informal, non-official verbal coaching session. That’s where it starts. And I’m doing it because I want to help you get better and I want you to develop. But it’s your choice to develop. Are you going to take the help or not? And then, over time, it could escalate to the point that I have to let you go. But that process is going to be a process. It’s not going to be a singular event.”

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:45:03] Another thing to consider, one of the dilemmas is that all the old behaviors of concern haven’t gone away. Many of these have even exacerbated if you look over the past year or two. Various levels of emotional crisis, we know depression is up threefold. Anxiety is up fourfold. And this is across the general population. Suicide threats, anger, hostility, inclusion, diversity and inclusion issues, violence threats, domestic violence, all of these issues are not — some are growing, some are neutral or the same that they were a couple of years ago, but here’s what’s different, the average worker is more aware of these issues, and they’re more aware of when they’re struggling. That doesn’t mean they’re coming forward. They may not feel safe coming forward, but they’re more aware of that, which means, as leaders, we are kind of beholden to try to do something about these. We can’t put our heads in the sand and just play like it’s an ostrich. So, we have to be aware of what these issues are as much, if not more than ever, and still try to navigate them with all the pain points I’ve also talked about.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:46:12] So, how do we do this? Well, we move towards a continuum of service support. And there’s a number of key offerings. And what we want to do here is we want to do these, not — I’ll say it better. We don’t want to be siloed in how we handle these. By the way, this is not exhaustive. Human resources, management, meaning just management at all levels, evaluation options. Does somebody need fitness for duty? Do we need to employ pre-employment screens on the front end? Do people need substance abuse support, or counseling, or evaluations? Do people need performance coaching or other types of performance coaching or enhancement? Mentoring? EDP support services, engagement and treatment providers for those individuals that need that, whether temporary or long-term. And obviously, we need to engage legal because there’s risk involved from the business perspective. Vocational services in some cases. Benefit and leave options, which is kind of a wing, if you will, of HR. All of these are key offerings, and it’s important because when all of these are working together, and they’re not siloed, that creates an environment in which the person, the employee, feels engaged, they feel supported. And again, supported doesn’t mean I’m going to stay here forever, but it means we’re maximizing the chance that I can get back to thriving and get my life back in a way that it’s a win/win.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:47:40] I often will say to my personal team at R3, my ultimate goal as a manager, as a leader is to help you thrive, whatever that may be, bring mentoring, bring guidance, bring support. I do not hit that goal every day. I have stressful days. I have busy days given the nature of my role as medical director that I do not live up to that promise. That’s my goal. But here’s the other part of the goal is I want to maximize that I can do all of that while you’re still with R3. If I can’t, and you go on, and you thrive somewhere else, great, I’m going to be happy for you as a colleague, and a friend, and a professional. But my goal is to try to maximize that internally. And that’s part of that engagement process as we navigate through this.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:48:29] So, I’m going to talk briefly here about leadership strategies. And then, we’re going to wrap up with probably about 10 minutes worth of questions if we have them. So, as leaders — and by the way, when I say leaders, you could be leader of a three-person team or you could be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. These apply. These apply to your Little League team, frankly, both on the parents and on the kids. First is champion and behavioral health at the top. If we are not modeling – and when I say modeling behavioral health, I don’t mean I am perfect and I’m living my best life every day. I’m not talking about living in an Instagram kind of visual life, which is often fake. I’m talking about champion support for behavioral health. And as leaders, sometimes, that means even admitting our own vulnerabilities or our own need to pursue our own resources. Now, self-disclosure is something that can be tricky. I’m not saying everyone should do that, but however you need to champion it, please do so as a leader.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:49:26] Foster open and clear communication. I often say this fear and anxiety level a vacuum, it’s important that we fill that vacuum to understand what is our company’s mission, what is our value towards behavioral health, and how are we going to support people? Engage your employees. Get to know them. Reach out to them. Don’t be distant as best you can. Model strength and vulnerability. How do you do that? Well, bottling strength isn’t just about being strong all the time. The problem, if you’re strong all the time as a leader, you give the impression, even if you don’t mean to, that your workers should be strong all the time. There’s something okay about stumbling because every time we stumble, we have to get back up. And to me, that’s the true modeling of the vulnerability from which strength comes from. It’s that “Yes, I had struggles.”

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:50:15] Someone said to me recently, and I love this quote, “You’re having a bad day. You’re not having a bad life.” So, there’s times that I will tell my folks, “I’m in a really crappy place today, but I’m going to get through it, and this is what I’m doing to get through it.” I am modeling the getting back up; I am not modeling being perfect all the time because none of us are.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:50:36] Know thyself and assess thyself. Again, this goes for organizations, it goes for teams, and it goes for individuals. Constantly looking at ourselves of how do we better ourselves, how do we improve? Know you’re lane. Now, this is organizationally. So, when outside of your lane, consultant an expert. If you don’t have internal legal, and you get up to a point where you need legal consultation, know who to go to. If you’re dealing with a threat mitigation situation, and you don’t deal with that regularly, reach out. I mean, a huge part of what I do as I sit on threat teams as an external ad hoc member and help them navigate hostility issues at their workplace because they’re not big enough or for many reasons, they don’t have an internal expert. That’s fine. Whatever the issue may be, is know your expertise, shine in that, and then know what are the other things you want to pursue.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:51:29] And be bold. If you look at the pain points that I talked about this this past hour, and if you look at what those are, and the challenges ahead, and in many ways, I’m going to say organizations have never been through this kind of accelerated revolutionary change, probably since early in the industrial revolution. We have to be bold. We have to be, to come up with solutions that are going to push us through into whatever the next normal is going to be on the back end of this, whether it’s a year, or two, or three years from now.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:52:10] So, in closing, and then we’ll get to some questions, one of my favorites, Brene Brown, I imagine many of you have seen or know of her, there’s a lot of research and thought leadership on vulnerability, and growth, and intimacy and so on, this quote sums it for me – and I’m adding employees to the mix because I think there’s accountability on all sides here – “Leaders and employees must either invest a reasonable amount of time trying to manage fears and feelings now or squander an unreasonable amount of time trying to manage ineffective and unproductive behavior later.” So, we are going to pay now or later in terms of time, and change, and effort. I think it’s better to do that on the front end and help develop people, especially given the trends that I’ve talked about today and then pain points. Doing that now versus doing that later in a crisis mode and a purely reactive mode.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:53:06] So, with that, I want to thank you for your time and I want to open it up for questions. For the last — I’ve got about six or seven minutes here.

Shane McNally: [00:53:14] Yeah, yeah, perfect. So, we do have a few minutes. We do have a quite a few questions that have come in as well. So, this is great. Before we hop into the questions, I just want to invite everybody to our next webinar, it’ll be our first one of 2022, and it’ll be on January 18th. This webinar will be taking a look at personal stress, and how it can affect our business life, and figuring out ways to mitigate that disruption. So, that webinar is also pending approval for one PDC credit through that SHRM recertification program we mentioned earlier, and more information is to come on that in the future.

Shane McNally: [00:53:48] So, with the few minutes we have remaining, let’s get started with a few questions, Dr. Vergolias. The first one here, there seems to be a lot of people celebrating remote work, but do you think they are underestimating the negative impact being remote has on their mental health and social health?

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:54:07] That’s a great — that’s an astute question, and I do. I do. I think — let me give you a quick example. I’ve been working remote with R3 for 10 years, and I did fine. And when the pandemic hit, everything changed, and it changed because everyone else was working remote. And when everyone else shifted, what I found is that my day didn’t end cleanly anymore. It’s just kind of evolved. There was never an off. And what’s odd is I should have been a master at this. But the environment, the context shifted, and I needed to shift with it.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:54:43] So, I do think there’s a lot of people that are either not aware or they’re aware and they’re struggling. One of the biggest things I do is that — so, I’m going to wrap this up in a few minutes. I got about another hour and a half or so. And every day, I change what I’m wearing. I get out of whatever — because whatever I’m wearing to during the day is my work clothes, and I change. And I literally consciously make a transition. I also try not to do a lot of non-business work in this room. This is my work office. Don’t always hit that goal. So, those are the kind of things that I think are important. And I think that’s a really, really astute question. Thank you.

Shane McNally: [00:55:24] Perfect. The next one here, you mentioned that leaders were still looking forward to 2022, but a large margin of employees may not feel that way. How can you tell if your employees are feeling unhappy in their position?

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:55:39] So, two things. One, and this is going to sound really like sophomoric, so excuse me, but ask them. Ask them. Do it in an anonymous way, so they don’t feel threatened. And then, listen to the input. And then, reflect it back, whether it’s a town hall, whether it’s a one-on-one discussion, a team discussion. And whatever leadership you are — I mean, a CEO can’t have discussions with everybody in the company, typically, but whatever level of leadership you might be showing, ask them what those concerns are, really convey you’ve heard them, share them back in a way that conveys you’ve heard them, and then try to come up with some solutions that can attest or, I’m sorry, that can attend to what those needs might be. Start with that. And if you start with that alone, you’re going to be ahead, I think, of 75% of the organizations out there.

Shane McNally: [00:56:37] All right, the next one here. How important is it for employers to have a 24-hour employee assistance program?

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:56:49] You know, I think it’s important to have, at least, access to resources. It really depends on your organizational culture, the size, and to what degree you feel your organization needs that level of support. And I know that is a very murky statement, but this is where the type of intervention and the scope really depends on the kind of organization that you have. What I will say is emotional crises do not happen 9:00 to 5:00. And anyone that’s in HR listening today is probably nodding your head. And they tend to happen at 4:30 on a Friday, but they don’t happen 9:00 to 5:00. And so, if we’re going to model and convey a true sense of support and wellbeing, it’s important, at least, to have available resources.

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:57:42] Now, that doesn’t mean you’re spending $3 million a year for a 24/7, 365 EAP response. It might be that you’re simply letting people know in their given work area, what are the local resources for mental health? Can we engage with those resources in other ways. Can we can we ally in some way, make allies or make connections with them? There’s some creative ways to do this, but I do think it’s important to convey that degree of support.

Shane McNally: [00:58:14] All right. And I think we have time for just one more question here, and this one came in right near the beginning. Other than the healthcare industry, what industry do you think has been hit the hardest over the last two years?

Dr. George Vergolias: [00:58:27] That’s a good question. I’d have to say the service sector industry just because of forced closures, reduction in patrons, just general service. It could be restaurants, it could be bars, it could be food, various types of food, hotels, they’ve just been so impacted. But what’s hard is that there’s a ripple effect. The other flip side is all the people that are stocking shelves and the trucker industry, and those that run trains and work at the port authorities on the supply chain, they’ve had the opposite effect of needing to do triple, quadruple time. So, it’s tough, but there’s been a number of those sectors. Those are the two that come to mind, one with no business, and one with an insane amount of over business, if you will. Amazon, those types of roles.

Shane McNally: [00:59:26] Yeah, absolutely. Well, so that will be the top of the hour for this webinar today. So, as a reminder to everyone, you can find more resources under our resource tab. You’ll be able to find our upcoming webinars, our recent webinars that you can watch on demand, which will shortly include today’s webinar as well.

Shane McNally: [00:59:45] As we’ve heard from Dr. Vergolias, 2022 is going to be a year that we’ll see some changes going forward and the importance of employee wellbeing. R3 Continuum can help to ensure your employee wellbeing program is offering the right level of behavioral health support by tailoring solutions to fit the unique challenges of your workplace. Learn more about R3 Continuum services and contact us at www.r3c.com or email us directly at info@r3c.com.

 

Show Underwriter

R3 Continuum (R3c) is a global leader in workplace behavioral health and security solutions. R3c helps ensure the psychological and physical safety of organizations and their people in today’s ever-changing and often unpredictable world. Through their continuum of tailored solutions, including evaluations, crisis response, executive optimization, protective services, and more, they help organizations maintain and cultivate a workplace of wellbeing so that their people can thrive. Learn more about R3c at www.r3c.com.

R3 Continuum is the underwriter of Workplace MVP, a show which celebrates the everyday heroes–Workplace Most Valuable Professionals–in human resources, risk management, security, business continuity, and the C-suite who resolutely labor for the well-being of employees in their care, readying the workplace for and planning responses to disruption.

Connect with R3 Continuum:  Website | LinkedIn | Facebook | Twitter

Tagged With: Dr. George Vergolias, employee mental health, employee well-being, employee wellness, hybrid work, labor shortage, R3 Continuum, teleHealth, wellness in the workplace, Workplace MVP

Dumb Things Smart Dentists Do, with Dr. Richard Madow, The Madow Center for Dental Practice Success

December 31, 2021 by John Ray

The Madow Center
Dental Law Radio
Dumb Things Smart Dentists Do, with Dr. Richard Madow, The Madow Center for Dental Practice Success
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Madow Center

Dumb Things Smart Dentists Do, with Dr. Richard Madow, The Madow Center for Dental Practice Success (Dental Law Radio, Episode 29)

Dentists, how does the phone get answered in your practice? Is your fascination with innovative technology actually hindering your ability to serve patients? A dentist himself, Richard Madow of The Madow Center joined host Stuart Oberman to cover some of the things that otherwise smart dentists do or allow to happen which are harmful to the practice. Dental Law Radio is underwritten and presented by Oberman Law Firm and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

Dr. Richard Madow, Co-Founder, The Madow Center for Dental Practice Success

Dr. Richard Madow, Co-Founder, The Madow Center for Dental Practice Success

In 1989, Dr. Richard Madow along with his brother Dr. David Madow founded The Madow Center For Dental Practice Success with the goal of helping their fellow dentists achieve success and happiness in their practices. Having been named a “Leader in Dental Consulting” by Dentistry Today for many years running, his publications, articles, and blogs are some of the most popular in the dental profession and have reached over 100,000 practices across the world!

Known for his hilarious and spontaneous style, Rich has lectured to standing room only crowds in practically every major city in The United States and Canada, teaching dentists and team members how to enjoy their careers, supercharge their practices, define and create their own personal success, increase profitability, and have more fun than ever before.

The Madow Center For Dental Practice Success has a unique approach to coaching – instead of modules and pre-written programs, each practice is individually guided to overcome their weaknesses and grow their strengths in order to obtain greater income levels and enjoy dentistry more. For more information, please check out www.madow.com

On a personal level, Rich is a life-long and award-winning musician, having performed in many venues across North America. He is currently writing and recording new material, and his latest album, “Coming Through With Static,” can be found on Spotify, Apple Music, and all of the regular streaming sites.

Among his other achievements, Rich’s book, Is Your Frog Boiling, was an Amazon bestseller for two full days, and he has traveled to 56 countries.

Company website | LinkedIn

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: [00:00:02] Broadcasting from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, it’s time for Dental Law Radio. Dental Law Radio is brought to you by Oberman Law Firm, a leading dental-centric law firm serving dental clients on a local, regional and national basis. Now, here’s your host, Stuart Oberman.

Stuart Oberman: [00:00:26] Welcome everyone to Dental Law Radio. We are back, back, back, back. We have an extraordinary guest today. I would say, one of the best practice consultants in the country that I’ve had the pleasure of meeting and consulting with in different areas. And our clients are happy when they use this particular guest. The one, the only Dr. Richard Madow today is going to join us and he’s going to embark on his experiences.

Stuart Oberman: [00:00:59] Now, a little background on Dr. Madow. So, he is the co-founder of the Madow Center for Dental Practice Success. And that is an extraordinary, extraordinary organization. And he will provide some information after our podcast today. And the interesting part is Richard has been labeled as the Leader in Dental Consulting by Dentistry Today, which I firmly believe. I’ve had the absolute pleasure of sponsoring some events that he’s been at. And I will tell you, the reception that he receives from his doctors is extraordinary. The presentation is spontaneous and hilarious. And I really am amazed that he has spoken and presented, probably, in just about every major city in the United States and Canada. And I know what he’s done for his doctors through the years, the careers, and they supercharged their practices, and they redefined who they are, and it creates success and and profitability, which is, sometimes, it’s very hard to do for our doctors.

Stuart Oberman: [00:02:14] And on a personal note, Richard is a lifelong award-winning musician. And for those that can see his guitar on the background there, I know he’s also talented. And I’ve actually have seen him play in his presentations, and I found that he was playing the piano this morning. So, not only is he a great consultant, but he is a published musician. And Richard, welcome. Welcome to the show today. Thank you so much for joining us. I know you are very busy.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:02:45] Oh, well, thanks so much for that introduction. That was really, really nice. I appreciate it, Stuart. And without sounding too much like we’re rubbing each other’s backs here, I want to congratulate you in what you’ve done over the years. Dentists, there aren’t that many times in our careers where we need to consult with a good lawyer by purchasing a practice, partnership agreement, selling a practice, et cetera, et cetera. And so many dentists make the mistake of going to a lawyer who’s a good lawyer but isn’t involved strictly in dentistry. So, what you’ve done for dentist, building your firm like that, taking the time to learn all the nuances and special things about dentists and what makes us tick, and how we’re so weird and crazy, and all those things just has been so responsible for your great success in helping dentists across the country. So, thanks for doing that. Congratulations on doing that.

Stuart Oberman: [00:03:35] Well, thank you for that kind information there, and it’s always appreciated. And I know that you’ve been deep in the industry for many years. And I know we could probably talk for seven days on what you’ve run across. But I want to cover a really main topic, and I know that you’re an expert on this area. I want to know point blank, dumb things that smart dentists do. We all have those clients that are absolutely brilliant, the leaders, but I want to hear what you have discovered. What are some of the dumb things that these guys do on a daily basis? And I know you could talk seven days on this, but I know you got some great things. So, tell me a little bit about what you’re seeing now out there.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:04:20] Yeah, it’s a great question. And look, I’ve done a lot of dumb things. Even though I’m no longer practicing, I had a practice for many, many years, built it up from actually a bankrupt practice that I purchased. So, it was below a scratch practice because the practice had debt when I took over and grew into a super successful practice, I’m proud to say, but I did so many dumb things along the way. And then, of course, I’ve been in, geez, hundreds and thousands of dental practices, spoken to tens of thousands of dentists and team members. And dentists are so smart. They’re so nice. They’re so cool. We really want to help people, but we’ve also done so many dumb things. So, since you asked, I thought of a few. And I’d love to share them with you and your listeners.

Stuart Oberman: [00:05:04] Yeah, tell me what you think? Give me five or six of the dumbest things that they’ve done.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:05:10] Okay, here’s one. Every time — I wouldn’t say every time, maybe 85% of the time when a dentist contacts the Madow Center about consulting, or coaching, or whatever the heck you want to call it, how can we make their practice better? One of the things they always say to us is we need more new patients. We need more new patients. It’s like a mantra, like a fix. We need more new patients. And new patients are great. And let’s face it, without new patients, your practice will plateau or go downhill.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:05:38] But invariably, every single time we’ll run a data analysis of their practice and find that sure, they can use some new patients, but they are losing patients more quickly than they could ever get new patients in the practice. These patients have been in. They, for some reason, responded to something you’ve done – a referral, a marketing piece, they drove by and saw your big, beautiful sign. They made the effort to recognize your practice – call, come in, have an examination. And then, they just drop off the face of the Earth. And practices have hundreds or thousands of these people who have fallen through the cracks, fallen into the black hole, walked out the back door, whatever you want to call them.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:06:23] And these are people who already know about your practice. They probably like you. They’ve probably already had an examination, maybe even treatment proposed. And our systems are letting them drop off the face of the Earth. And it’s our fault as dentists, because we don’t have the proper systems and protocols to track people and know how to call them to get them back in. And I don’t just mean calling and saying, “You’re overdue for your recall. Do you want to schedule?” That doesn’t work. We’ve got to really know how to do this. But we’ve got these pools of existing patients that have become forgotten people. And instead, we always want to know about the new patients.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:06:58] It’s so much easier and so much more cost effective to get these patients back in who have already come to our practice; yet, we tend to neglect them. Not as sexy maybe as getting a new patient in the door, but so much easier, so much more cost effective. That’s a dumb thing that smart dentists do.

Stuart Oberman: [00:07:14] Now, you have a whole program regarding this particular matter. The fixer, am I right? Well, you’ve got a whole program dedicated to this.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:07:23] Well, we do. When we work with a practice, we teach them exactly what to do and how to. And let’s face it, sometimes, you look at the data and say, “Well, this patient, they were in, whatever, four years ago. For some reason, they dropped off the face of the Earth, and we don’t think we’re going to be able to bring them back.” But we help practices identify who to start working with first, who are the best. And it’s usually people who are more recent. I mean, once somebody has been gone for four or five years, they’re tougher; although, they do come back. It’s hard to believe, but some people go five years between dental appointments, as gross as that sounds.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:07:56] But you need to have the systems, the protocols to get these people back in. And it’s usually treating them as a real person, not just sending some generic email or text, “You’re 18 months overdue, would you like-” But actually calling them, and chatting with them and saying, “Hey, we haven’t seen you for a while. Last time you were in, you were getting ready,” and I’m just winging this here, “But getting ready for knee replacement surgery. How’d that go? How are you feeling? It’s time you come back because when you saw Becky, our great hygienist, she noticed there were some areas of concern, and we really need to make sure that your teeth are healthy,” whatever. Just a personalized conversation with every single person, rather than some generic throw-spaghetti-against-the-wall-strategy. And that’s how we get people back into your practice.

Stuart Oberman: [00:08:40] Phones, phones, phones. Tell me about doctor not answering phones.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:08:46] Dumb thing number two. What a great segue, Stuart. I really appreciate that. Dumb thing number two. We do so much, and this is kind of shifting from patients who have slipped through the cracks to new patients, or maybe patients who you’ve contacted, and you have been in trouble — I mean, you’re having trouble getting a hold of them. And then, what happens? You guys are in Metro Atlanta, right? Where’s there like a dentist every square foot there? I mean, it’s the same where I’m here in Baltimore.

Stuart Oberman: [00:09:14] Six feet.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:09:14] Yeah, it’s unbelievable, isn’t it? And for some reason, somebody picks up the phone and decides to call your practice one day. It’s a great moment. And what happens? They call, and we don’t answer the phone. Now, in our live seminars, we used to do live secret shopper calls, and I’ve done tens of thousands of secret shopper calls personally. We would call dental offices live during our seminars from that area to see how they handled a potential new patient call. And we stopped doing them live, not because we embarrass somebody in front of a whole group of 200 people, and they started crying; not because we were sued for defamation because we embarrassed the dentist in front of their colleagues. Now, all of those things did actually happen, but that’s not why we stopped doing it. We stopped doing it live because 50% of the time, the phone wasn’t being answered during normal business hours.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:10:07] I mean, this is ridiculous. A potential new patient or patient who has been — you tried to bring that patient back into the fold calls your office and they get a voicemail. If you’re hearing this voicemail during regular business hours, it means we’re busy seeing other patients. No, no, no. Unacceptable. Think about it. A patient, a new patient or a recall patient, they’re nervous, they’re tense, they probably don’t want to be there, they’re looking for any excuse not to come in. They finally make the effort to call your office and they’re going to get a voicemail during normal business hours; totally unacceptable. Totally unacceptable.

Stuart Oberman: [00:10:44] So, you say a lot of seminars, you actually teach these guys how to answer the phones?

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:10:48] Oh, I’ve spent a ton of time during our live seminars talking about proper phone technique, absolutely.

Stuart Oberman: [00:10:52] Are they that bad at it? They actually have a lot of setup. I mean, you said 50%, that’s amazing. I mean, that’s-

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:11:01] I never said, don’t answer the phone at all. And once they do answer the phone, I’d say 90% of the people that actually answer do not know the proper way to get a patient off the phone and into the appointment book. They know how to get them off the phone, but not into the appointment book. So, yeah, there’s a lot that goes into it, for sure.

Stuart Oberman: [00:11:19] Well, a lot of times – and I want you to talk about this, and this may be on your agenda, but I hear the expression all the time, “Buy it and they will come.” What does that mean in a dental practice? I never understood that.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:11:35] Oh, well, that’s the third dumb thing that smart dentists do. But if you don’t mind, I just want to get back to the phone thing for one quick second. Then, we’ll talk about that because I care about this so much. Again, it’s probably an hour and a half to two-hour segment in our live seminars or webinars talking about proper phone technique, and this part of our discussion with this one thing. When a patient calls and says something that we don’t like, “How much is a cleaning? Do you take my insurance?” whatever, maybe we don’t like those particular questions, but they’re calling for a reason.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:12:05] And the reason is out of all the dental practices in your area, whether it’s Metro Atlanta or a rural area in Kansas where there aren’t that many dentists, they called your office because they want to come in. So, every call needs to be ended asking the patient to come in and not just saying, “Would you like to make an appointment?” but offering too good times. “We’d love to see you as a new patient in our practice. We can see you tomorrow at 3:30 p.m. If that’s not convenient for you. We’ve got Tuesday at 11 30 a.m. Which works best?” Again, 90% of these calls end with the patient never being offered an appointment. So, I just want you to get that in there before we move on to buy it and they will come, which is another favorite dumb thing of mine.

Stuart Oberman: [00:12:48] I hear that all the time, and I don’t know what that means.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:12:51] Buy and they will come. Well, when I say buy it and they will come, again, when a dentist contacts us at the Madow Center, it’s because they want to improve their practice. And also, dentists go to large dental conventions because they want to improve their practice. Down there in Atlanta, you’ve got to Hinman, one of the best meetings in the world. It could be the Chicago Midwinter, or the ADA, or maybe more than likely a smaller regional meeting. Every state has them and every state agency has them. And you go there to learn, and you go there to improve your practice. And one of the things we love doing as dentists because we love gadgets and we love touching things is we love going to that exhibit hall because all the latest and greatest equipment in tech is there, and it’s all shiny and fun. It’s also very costly.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:13:37] And one of the mistakes dentists fall into is they’re looking for ways to improve their practice, and they wind up getting sucked into buying a piece of equipment that’s going to put them in $80,000 to $100,000 worth of debt with the promise from this salesperson, this highly commissioned salesperson, that if you buy this object, people will flock to your practice. It’s all you have to do. Just buy this. And I’m not a Luddite. I’m not saying tech is bad. Tech is great. Cone beam imaging is phenomenal. Being able to have a crown made in your office the same day, if you’re skilled enough to do it, that’s a big if, but if you are skilled enough to do, it is incredible. But patients won’t come into your practice because you bought the latest and greatest technology no matter what these salespeople say. They’re saying buy it and they will come, but it’s just not true. It’s back to basics of providing a memorable experience.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:14:32] Phone tech, we were talking about. Treating every patient incredibly well. I mean, these are things we teach all the time. That’s what gets people to come into your office to stay, to get treatment accepted, to refer. It’s not because you’ve got the best cone beam technology. And again, I’m not saying you shouldn’t have this, it helps us practice better, but only if you can afford it, only if you’re not going to go into debt. Don’t think that this technology is going to bring you more patients because it just simply won’t. Now, you guys deal with — you see the down and dirty, you see people’s balance sheets. I’ll bet you’ve seen dentists who are in horrible debt. And it’s just so sad, isn’t it?

Stuart Oberman: [00:15:10] Well, you’ve seen this, and probably there’s only 10% of dentists out there that retire at 65. The rest of them have got to work, they’ve got to work, and they got to work, which is-

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:15:20] It’s scary, isn’t it?

Stuart Oberman: [00:15:22] It really is sad. It really, really, really. So, why do they buy this equipment? I mean, why do they buy that? Why do they buy a hundred-thousand piece of equipment? Why?

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:15:32] Well, first of all, it’s fun. Let’s face it, we’re dentists, we love doing fun things that are technologically advanced and that our patients will love. So, we buy because, in a way – and this is not a bad thing, I guess – it keeps our batteries charge. You’re a little burnt out, you’re sick of the mundane. Well, this is a cool thing. I can do more procedures. I can do my endo more accurately, whatever. That’s one of the reasons.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:15:53] But again, ask them to buy and they will come philosophy, which is not true, a lot of times we buy dental technology because we think it will enhance our bottom line. Our patients are going to say yes to everything we proposed. I always say, you talk about CEREC, which if you’re not a dentist and you’re listening, it’s a technology where instead of having a crown be to a point – and so you prepare the crown, then you send the impression to a lab, then the crown comes back, it’s cemented in two weeks later – a CEREC technology will allow you to do the crown same day because you make the crown right in your office.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:16:27] Well, this is fun, but it’s expensive. And as I always say, this is a patient talking, “I’ll only get that crown if you can do it in one day,” said no patient ever. Patients aren’t going to leave you or say no because you don’t have the latest technology. They’ll leave you and say no because you’re not making them feel special. You’re not providing a great patient experience. That’s why patients believe you’re running late all the time. You’re not getting the phone and it’s going to voicemail. That’s why patients leave, not because of the technology you have. So, again, nothing against outstanding equipment, and supplies and all those things in your office, but it’s not going to bring in more new patients. And as you said, Stu, only 10% of dentists is gonna retire at 65. Well, that’s sad. That’s pathetic. And a lot of times, it’s because of the tremendous amount of debt they’ve incurred. Let’s face it.

Stuart Oberman: [00:17:17] Yeah. Number four, give me your number four. Give me your number four.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:17:21] Okay, good. Yeah, let’s keep rocking here. This is fun. Something the dentists do all the time is they try to sell dentistry. They try to sell dentistry. And we take these courses, and I’ve taken them myself – not proud to say – where it’s like a weekend workshop, and we’re going to teach you how to sell dentistry. And by the time you leave here, your patients are going to say yes to all their treatment.

Stuart Oberman: [00:17:46] My patient coordinator is not selling enough dentistry, right?

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:17:50] Right, exactly. Here’s the problem – if my patient care coordinator could just sell more dentistry, everything will be great. So, you take her or him to this course, and then you come out, and you become a used car salesman, and you’re using these high-pressure techniques to get your patients to say yes to dentistry. I mean, it’s essentially like — and think about it, patients that come into your dental practice as a new patient, typically, they’re calling your office because they’ll say, like, “I chipped a tooth, I’m overdue for a cleaning. I’m having a little discomfort. I noticed my gums are sensitive and bleeding a little bit,” whatever, “I got new insurance.” These are the reasons that patients come into our office.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:18:28] And many times, they need a ton of treatment. They need $12,000 worth of treatment or $15,000 worth of treatment. And that’s great, and we can help them become healthy again. But these high-pressure treatment acceptance courses pretty much say, “Okay, you do the exam. You get the patient through your consultation room, and you tie them to the chair, and you browbeat them until they say yes.”

Stuart Oberman: [00:18:50] Yeah.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:18:51] That’s going against human nature. That’s not the way it works, and we’re trying to sell them on this dentistry. And it’s not about selling. It’s about establishing the relationship. It’s about having the patient trust you, and bond with you, and kind of become your friend in a way and say, “Well, you know what? I trust this office. I know they’re telling me the truth. I know it’s not because the dentist has five kids in private school. So, it’s for my health, and I’m going to say yes.” But when we pressure our patients to try to sell dentistry, well, every now and then somebody says yes, and you feel like you’re the greatest patient presentation master in the world-

Stuart Oberman: [00:19:28] But don’t patients pick that up, though? I mean, they pick that up, don’t they?

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:19:32] I totally agree.

Stuart Oberman: [00:19:33] They know when they’re being sold.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:19:35] I totally agree. The great thing about dentistry, or there are many great things about dentistry, but one of the great things about dentistry is that we profit the most when we get our patients in good dental health. It’s a true win-win. Other professions, they profit the most when they’re doing something that maybe isn’t so great for their customer or maybe isn’t so great for their client, but in dentistry, we make the most money when our patients are in the best state of dental health. So, that’s great. So, let’s use that to our advantage. We shouldn’t have to pressure people into saying yes to treatment. We should educate them about their dental health and get them to understand that, “Hey, if we do this, you’re going to be in better health.”

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:20:13] So, one of the things I always like to say is it’s not when the patient says yes, it’s where they say yes to getting their dentistry done. In other words, we shouldn’t feel like we have to get them to say yes in the first visit. What we should feel like is that we’re going to make them comfortable enough that when they finally do say yes, it’s in our office and not somebody else’s office because we scared the crap out of them. And it’s not about getting them to say yes to everything all at once. Some patients need a year, two years, three years or more to get all their treatment completed for financial reasons, for scheduling reasons, for whatever reason. So, we need to welcome that. We need to work with our patients to make things the most comfortable for them. And then, they’ll get their treatment done eventually, but they’ll get it done in your office and not someone else’s because we didn’t scare them away by selling, selling, selling.

Stuart Oberman: [00:21:04] That’s a great point. Almost too much selling can drive away patients. That’s a great point. I never thought about. That’s a great point.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:21:11] Yeah. It’s funny, I took this this fancy schmancy treatment planning course many years ago, and the guy kept-

Stuart Oberman: [00:21:19] When you were a young kid, right?

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:21:21] What’s that?

Stuart Oberman: [00:21:22] When you were a young kid?

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:21:22] When I was a young kid. Right, when I was a young buck. And they kept saying, “Well-” And I’ll do it with my bad Texas accent, but this guy had a strong Texan accent. He would say, “You got to ask somebody 12 times until they say yes.” And I’d be like, “Well, what are you talking about?” “Is this a treatment you would like?” “No, no, no. I can’t afford that right now. I’m not ready.” “Well, that’s okay. I’ve got 11 more times. Is this the treatment you would like?” “No.” And like, it doesn’t work. It’s high pressure. It drives people nuts, and they run away screaming. So, yeah, we can’t sell it. It’s all about trust. It’s really all about trust.

Stuart Oberman: [00:21:54] Give me number five. Give me a number five.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:21:56] Okay, number five. There’s an expression, I think it’s an expression in the South, and that is “Dance with who brung you.” And dentists tend to ignore this advice so many times. And I’ll give you maybe two main categories of what dentists do. Dentists will be frustrated or a little bored and burnt out, not really earning the amount of money they’d like, so they get distracted, like, “Oh, I’m going to invest in my cousin’s brewpub. That should be fun,” or “I’m going to sell this multilevel marketing lotion in my office. If I get five patients to do it, and they get five, they each get five, and then they each get five, and then they each get five,” despite the fact that mathematically this is impossible, “I’m going to be a millionaire selling overpriced hand lotion, and I can retire from dentistry.” And we get distracted.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:22:43] But dentistry is who brung us. I mean, there are a few things that we could do better for our career and have a great dental practice, and we get distracted by these other things. And that’s one way of not dancing with who brung it. But my other way, I see this much more too, is the dentist thinks, “Well, my practice is doing okay, but I could do a lot better if I opened up a satellite practice.” And I can’t stand that term. Like what the heck is a satellite practice? One practice kind of revolves around the other practice, and if you can grab it on the right day, that’s 30 miles outside of town.

Stuart Oberman: [00:23:15] I wanna scale. I wanna scale. I want to scale. Meanwhile, your main practice is-

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:23:20] Exactly

Stuart Oberman: [00:23:20] … is in the tank. So, yeah.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:23:22] Bingo! Bingo, Stuart! You’ve got it exactly. And then, what happens? The second you open your satellite practice, you’ve doubled your overhead, and you can’t be there to do all the production, so you’ve got to hire an associate. Now, you’ve tripled your overhead because you’ve got to pay this associate. And the associate’s not invested in it, they’re just biding time until they could do something better. And you’ve got more management headaches, much more overhead when you could be doing so much better if you just put all your efforts into making your one practice the absolute best it can be.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:23:56] And another example I just thought of too of not dancing with who brung you, when we’re not doing as well as we would like, we get distracted by doing these esoteric procedures. “I’m going to take this weekend warrior course and learn how to do this procedure,” when meanwhile, let’s focus on what most patients need. Patients need endo core and crown, they need scaling and root planing, they need implants and implant restoration. Let’s focus on not these esoteric crazy treatments, but focus on what patients need, doing it in one office, one office where we’re utilizing our space and our team to the maximum. That’s how you make a profit in dentistry, and that’s how you treat your patients well.

Stuart Oberman: [00:24:35] Yeah. How about one more?

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:24:39] You want one more?

Stuart Oberman: [00:24:39] Yeah, give me one more. Give me one more, because there’s got to be one more. There’s got to be one.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:24:47] I wouldn’t do this. Well, I had this in mind to do this the last one, because it’s something we started talking about in the beginning when I was talking about how Oberman Law Firm is such an incredible place because you specialize in working with dentists. And I’ll say dumb thing number six is not using specialized professionals. You’ve got to have what some people call their board of directors. Every dentist needs an accountant, an attorney, a financial advisor, a lease negotiator, a web designer-

Stuart Oberman: [00:25:15] A good consultant from Baltimore.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:25:17] Exactly. A great dental coach for your practice.

Stuart Oberman: [00:25:20] From Baltimore.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:25:21] I think the Madow Center the best. But yeah, you know, there are definitely times in our careers where we need to utilize the services of a dental coach or consultant. So, all those things. But so many times we make the mistake of not going to somebody who truly specializes in dentistry. “My best friend from college is an accountant. She’s a genius. I’ve never seen somebody to be able to recite the tax codes as well as her,” and she might be, but if her practice consists of 10 restaurant owners who are clients, and then somebody who does this, and somebody who does that, well, oh yeah, but it’s all the same. It’s all tax returns. It’s all P&L statements, right? No, it’s not. Dentistry has so many nuances that you’ve got to really be a specialist to understand,

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:26:07] “Oh, you know what? My nephew, he’s a whiz with computers. He’s going to do my website and SEO.” He might be a whiz with computers, but unless he knows all the dental terminology and all the things that are specific to dentists, he’s not going to do a good job for you. Accountants, geez, they need to know everything about dental practice – what your overhead should be, what your team should be earning, what different PPO plans can offer you, all these things. And unless your accountant, or your attorney or whatever specializes in dentistry, breaths it, works with a day in and day out, they’re not going to be as effective as somebody who truly specializes in working with us.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:26:43] And might it be a little bit more expensive to use a financial planner or accountant, et cetera, who specializes in dentistry? Well, it might be, but who cares because you’re going to be the huge winner in the long run, both financially, fewer headaches, all those things that we treasure, less time, more time efficient, all those things are going to come into play when you truly use a specialized professional. So, I think a great way to do the final dumb things, since I’m talking to a truly specialized professional on your podcast.

Stuart Oberman: [00:27:14] Well, yeah. It’s amazing is that a doctor will say, “Well, I got a little bit of trouble doing a root canal.” I’m like, “Why didn’t you send that out to endo? I mean, half the endos can even find to B2 canal.” I mean, it’s amazing that we say this all the time, stay in your wheelhouse. All of a sudden, I paid $6000, went to implant course; and now, on Monday, I’m a specialist, and and I can graft anywhere, anything, any time, any place. Now, I’m good.”

Stuart Oberman: [00:27:51] Well, I’ll tell you what, and I’m sure you could probably name 70 things that our guys do on the dumb things, but this is amazing. I mean, I hope that when our doctors listen to this, they will one make note of each thing that you said because it is amazing, it is practical, it is everyday usage. You guys teach it every day. You’ve been in the trenches. You’ve been there. You’ve done that. So, this is not only from a quote consultant that has never put a hand in a mouth. You’ve actually been there and done that. It’s so I think you’ve got a whole different perspective, which a lot of the consultants and business advisors and so on have no clue about. So-

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:28:39] Yeah, I like to think, Stu, there’s kind of a fraternity/sorority of dentists that we just have done some — we’ve been kicked, we know what it’s like to prep the dismissal of tooth number two on a patient that’s squirming, salivating and bleeding, we fought with insurance companies, we’ve let our teams. And there are some consultants out there, most who have never had this experience. How can they relate to it like we could? Just like using a specialized professional to have on your board of directors, your attorney, your accountant, your financial planner? It’s good to work with people who have been there, done that.

Stuart Oberman: [00:29:15] Well, I know you’ve been there, done that. And your reputation far precedes you, what you guys do on a daily basis. Richard, it is amazing, as always. Again, we could talk for seven days on this. I can’t thank you enough for, one, joining us on the podcast; and two, for what you guys do for the industry. I’ve seen it, I’ve been there, I’ve done that, I’ve listened, and you guys do a fantastic job. So, my friend, thank you for joining us and enjoy Baltimore.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:29:45] Thanks so much. It’s my pleasure. If anybody wants to send me an email, my personal email address is rich@madow.com. I love getting emails from dentists all across the world. If you want to see what we’re doing to help other dentists, just check out our website. It’s madow.com. I love to do a chat. We don’t charge for initial visit, so to speak. I’d love to speak with you and talk about what’s going on in your practice. It’s fun and we can always help. So, thanks so much for having me.

Stuart Oberman: [00:30:18] With that being said, you guys are putting on stuff all the time. What’s your next event? What’s your next podcast? When’s your next speaker?

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:30:26] Oh, geez. Well, thanks for asking. We do a podcast, it comes out two to three times a month. It’s called The Dental Practice Fixers. So, if you just go on wherever you get your podcasts – Apple, Spotify, YouTube. It’s on YouTube as well.

Stuart Oberman: [00:30:40] Where I can find your music too, right?

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:30:42] Exactly. Yeah, my music is on Spotify. You can look for Richard Madow. I got my stuff in there, but look for The Dental Practice Fixers. Or if you go to our website, there’s a little drop-down for dental podcast. You can check it out there. Speaking gigs are finally coming back after the pandemic, so I’ll be in a bunch of places, I think, in the next few months – Orlando, Long Island, Arizona, Montana. I hope I’m not forgetting anything but finally getting you out there and doing some speaking gigs again. So, if I come to your neck of the woods, that would be great. Also, I just got contacted by an office in New Jersey, a large group practice, and they want me to come in and do an in-service for their team. And I’m really excited about doing that. So, we do that too. Anything you want, we’re here to help.

Stuart Oberman: [00:31:25] I hear you, man. My friend, thank you, sir. Have a fantastic weekend. Happy holidays and we’ll be talking to you soon.

Dr. Richard Madow: [00:31:31] It’s great to be a guest on your podcast. Thanks so much, Stu.

Stuart Oberman: [00:31:34] Thank you, buddy.

 

About Dental Law Radio

Hosted by Stuart Oberman, a nationally recognized authority in dental law, Dental Law Radio covers legal, business, and other operating issues and topics of vital concern to dentists and dental practice owners. The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

Stuart Oberman, Oberman Law Firm

Oberman Law Firm
Stuart Oberman, host of “Dental Law Radio”

Stuart Oberman is the founder and President of Oberman Law Firm. Mr. Oberman graduated from Urbana University and received his law degree from John Marshall Law School. Mr. Oberman has been practicing law for over 25 years, and before going into private practice, Mr. Oberman was in-house counsel for a Fortune 500 Company. Mr. Oberman is widely regarded as the go-to attorney in the area of Dental Law, which includes DSO formation, corporate business structures, mergers and acquisitions, regulatory compliance, advertising regulations, HIPAA, Compliance, and employment law regulations that affect dental practices.

In addition, Mr. Oberman’s expertise in the health care industry includes advising clients in the complex regulatory landscape as it relates to telehealth and telemedicine, including compliance of corporate structures, third-party reimbursement, contract negotiations, technology, health care fraud and abuse law (Anti-Kickback Statute and the State Law), professional liability risk management, federal and state regulations.

As the long-term care industry evolves, Mr. Oberman has the knowledge and experience to guide clients in the long-term care sector with respect to corporate and regulatory matters, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities (CCRCs). In addition, Mr. Oberman’s practice also focuses on health care facility acquisitions and other changes of ownership, as well as related licensure and Medicare/Medicaid certification matters, CCRC registrations, long-term care/skilled nursing facility management, operating agreements, assisted living licensure matters, and health care joint ventures.

In addition to his expertise in the health care industry, Mr. Oberman has a nationwide practice that focuses on all facets of contractual disputes, including corporate governance, fiduciary duty, trade secrets, unfair competition, covenants not to compete, trademark and copyright infringement, fraud, and deceptive trade practices, and other business-related matters. Mr. Oberman also represents clients throughout the United States in a wide range of practice areas, including mergers & acquisitions, partnership agreements, commercial real estate, entity formation, employment law, commercial leasing, intellectual property, and HIPAA/OSHA compliance.

Mr. Oberman is a national lecturer and has published articles in the U.S. and Canada.

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Oberman Law Firm

Oberman Law Firm has a long history of civic service, noted national, regional, and local clients, and stands among the Southeast’s eminent and fast-growing full-service law firms. Oberman Law Firm’s areas of practice include Business Planning, Commercial & Technology Transactions, Corporate, Employment & Labor, Estate Planning, Health Care, Intellectual Property, Litigation, Privacy & Data Security, and Real Estate.

By meeting their client’s goals and becoming a trusted partner and advocate for our clients, their attorneys are recognized as legal go-getters who provide value-added service. Their attorneys understand that in a rapidly changing legal market, clients have new expectations, constantly evolving choices, and operate in an environment of heightened reputational and commercial risk.

Oberman Law Firm’s strength is its ability to solve complex legal problems by collaborating across borders and practice areas.

Connect with Oberman Law Firm:

Company website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Tagged With: client retention, Dental Law Radio, Oberman Law Firm, Richard Madow, Stuart Oberman, The Madow Center, The Madow Center for Dental Practice Success

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